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post #61 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 12:16 PM
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Mark,

Thanks, as usual.

Placing a metallic compression item directly on the paint! Yikes!!!. But, your pic helpfully shows the hole, and where it will need to go to replicate the factory setup. I may ponder the merits of a sort of "J" shaped bolt that would drop down from the original mounting spot on the hardtop, curve back into the convertible top pit, and then back forward to some sort of securing bracket. Perhaps a fabricated bracket that mounts under the convertible top pivot bolt? That would spare me drilling a hole in my superbly expensive, and painfully color-matched, grigio biacca. Plus, this solution would meet the needs of both of my tops.

The front mount appears quite similar to the one for the convertible top. I bought four such toggle-over hold-downs from CA (ouch) anticipating their use. My original was just like yours in that it does not use the toggle method, rather one tightens to suit. I wonder if, in testing, the toggle might have occasionally popped loose, resulting in the car instantly becoming a convertible again with the top bouncing along amongst the following traffic? Hagerty has probably already reached their tolerance level with my occasional towing requirements. If need be, I can convert the toggle system back to the tighten-to-suit approach.

The POCF did not use the same mounting system for the front hold-downs, in that the two holes are horizontal rather than vertical. I may try to fab an adapter so I can use these new toggle-overs on both tops.

It just occurred to me that a fancy bracket might be fabbed that provide a gripping loop for the rear hold-downs. This could be milled out of steel, chromed, and bolted to the upper fender in the same place as your hole. Then, toggle-over hold downs could just snag the loop and hold down the top. Hmmmm. Might require reinforcement of the body steel in that area, I suppose.

What does your hold-down bolt grip on underneath the body sheet metal? Is is just pressing upward on the sheet metal? Yikes, again.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #62 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 12:38 PM
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Yes Mark, the roll-down side window on the 2600 is shorter than the 2000.
La Bono
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post #63 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by lbo48 View Post
Yes Mark, the roll-down side window on the 2600 is shorter than the 2000.
La Bono
The basic door is much the same as the 2000, in fact. I'd hate to try and swap doors from one 2000 to another, or a with a 2600, but I've heard it has been done. I think the basic wheel base is the same for the two cars, with the 2600 getting a bigger rear passenger area mainly by removing the dividing bar for the top pit, and changing the shape of the rear floorboards.

Oh well, out to the shop for some fiddling...

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #64 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I wonder if, in testing, the toggle might have occasionally popped loose, resulting in the car instantly becoming a convertible again with the top bouncing along amongst the following traffic?
Probably not, as the hold-down hooks aft of the doors prevent the top from sliding backwards (and so it still will be held in place by 5 points rather than 7).

I think the toggle vs. non-toggle approach at the A-pillar is a function of how often it will be used in a season and how good the front seal needs to be in rain or snow. It would not make much sense if one had to use a wrench every time the soft top goes up or down -- hence the toggle. By comparison, the toggle is overkill on a hardtop: Installing/removing the hardtop requires tools anyways, and less parts usually means less problems (no matter whether due to user error or part failure).

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #65 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 01:15 PM
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Smile Side hold down on hardtop

My goodness! What a quandry! The question is how to hold the hard top down on the side. My side hold downs require six pieces each side. A hole goes down into the well on the outside of where the top folds. No one would normally see it if the top were not on because the well cover stretches over it. The hole, by the way, is larger than the (1) bolt -- the first piece. But to give the bolt going into the hole from the bottom ability to be fitted into the exact place so the rubber of the top will fit the window snugly and eliminate a draft there is (2) a cone looking fitting that has an offset hole and taper fits into the hole so that by turning it clockwise or counterclockwise align the bolt perfectly -- that being the way to get the top held to the center more or less or forward more or less. Placing the bolt correctly is the key to a good fit. There is then a (3) flat washer on top of the hole (yes, Don, on the paint -- but you could put a piece of plastic under the washer) under a (4) nut of the proper size to hold the bolt from moving out of the correct position once the top is fitted. Obviously, fitting the top exactly might mean putting it down and checking the fit, then lifting it off to move the bolt coming up though the hole in the deck from the bottom. Once the top sitting on the bolt fits exactly right there is then a (5) a shiny chromed piece that fits over the horizontal piece on inside of the top (as shown in the photos above) through which the bolt that was put in from the bottom fits into a hole that just fits the bolt (or rather over which the top fits through perfectly when it is placed correctly). And then that piece is held down by (in my case) (6) a chromed acorn nut. There is no chromed acorn nut in the above photo but instead a self locking nut with plastic inside. That might leave the very top of the bolt out, but probably not because the correct bolt does not extend too far into the acorn nut so as to be stopped anyway.

Now, all that is fine and good. If your car did not come with the hole to the outside of the top well (but still under the fabric well cover), then make the hole a bit bigger than the one in the top itself so you can align the bolt in to the center more or less to fit the rubber on the window side with the door closed exactly. If the top is held too far in, then winding the window up after opening it will be difficult. It it is too loose the wind whistles and the rain comes in.

And now that I understand from Tubut's previous post (thank you, Reudi, for that good information) that the markings of the Sekurit numbers on the top rear windows (before mysteriously also on the side windows) refers to quality of glass rather than sizes I guess there is no choice now but have a mold laid up on the outside of my 2000 type two hardtop window. I discovered the mold I was sent from Florida was for a 2600 series one glass which is not tall enough to fit 2000 type two hard top. And that is despite the suggestion that the Florida hardtop was originally a 2000 top cut down to fit the 2600. On examination I don't believe that could be correct. Besides, from my previous experience I am quite sure it would be possible to cut a 2000 top down to fit a 2600 because of the respective curvatures of the rear decks of the 2000 model and the 2600 model. I tried a 2000 hardtop on a 2600 and the 2600 has a higher rear curvature to the point that it is impossible to have the side bolt down areas even touch the deck. The 2000 rear deck if flatter. I have also tried to put a factory 2600 type one wrear glass into a 2000 type two hard top and found it not tall enough. I should have realize they would not interchange.

So I guess I must dare breaking my own rear glass to have a mold made of it so that windows of the correct size to fit a 2000 type two hard top can be made of plexiglass or lexan which would be large enough to be cut (1) a bit in height to fix a 2600 type one, or (2) in width to fit a 2000 type one, and (3) possibly -- I hope, I hope -- be big enough to allow a different angle to be found by trimming to fit the more vertical rear window for the 2600 type two, the hardtop which was supposed to turn a 2600 spider into a 2x2 with enough headroom for four people (assuming, of course, that at least two of the four had no legs -- yuk, yuk). I fear it might not work. But until I get a window made and lay it up against a type two 2600 hardtop I won't know. And the type two 2600 hard top at my disposal here does not have a good rear window to make a mold that might be trimmed to fit all smaller hardtops for 2000 and 2600. We will see what we can come up with.

So many living in the southern states seldom use their hardtops and just let them sit. And those in the north don't go looking for one until winter comes if they don't just hide their cars away till the coming summer. If some of you in the south want to sell hardtops please put the add in Ebay but NOT in the summer. The guys up north don't start looking until the weather turns bad. However, my wife had contacts and never in the first twenty five years of so of our marriage did she ever enjoy my convertible without the hardtop. Now she has had new lens surgery and her eyes without glasses can enjoy the scenery so I might take my hard top again this summer. We must keep our loved ones happy and now she won't have to suffer in silence when she rides with me in my beautiful spider with the top down.

May your Alfas run forever.

[B]JAY NUXOLL [/B][EMAIL="
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post #66 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 02:13 PM
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Jay,

Just a free opinion...

If you're going to make a mold for your hardtop rear window, I wouldn't bother trying to make a "one size fits all" mold. Just make it fit your top. If things get too hard, the project will just never happen.

When you say "type two 2000 top", do you mean the one where the rear glass wraps around to a point on each side, and the upper edge of the top has a slightly sharp crease where it transitions from horizontal to vertical? I'm guessing I have the type-one top, with no crease and a rear window that does not wrap around to the sides. Or, we could call it the "blind man's bluff" top.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #67 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 02:36 PM
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I really am trying to be helpful and not cause your blood pressure to elevate...

Regarding the metallic compression comments...the ~3" long bolt that comes up just behind the seat, under the fender really could use a rubber washer (I had't even though about that). I use a thin plastic washer under the nut that sits on the paint and it is under some compression. The aluminum piece covers the bracket on the inside of the hardtop. The aluminum piece does not contact the paint. Keep in mind that there are seven hardtop mounting points to hold things together, so none of them are really under stress.

I hate to mention it now, cuz its quitting time but the rear two outside mounting points are adjustable, with wing nuts, from inside the trunk! I don't know if they all have this adjustment feature or not...

Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
Placing a metallic compression item directly on the paint! Yikes!!!. But, your pic helpfully shows the hole, and where it will need to go to replicate the factory setup.
What does your hold-down bolt grip on underneath the body sheet metal? Is is just pressing upward on the sheet metal? Yikes, again.
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post #68 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 12:12 PM
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Edgar Bortolini in Brasil (Brazil) has worked with an automotive window glass manufacturer to have new glass made for the front and rear windscreens on his Montreal.

This same manufacturer would gladly make new rear hardtop windows for the Touring Roadster/Spider. Would Larry Bono be willing to loan them the mold that he had the forethought and the courage to make?

Larry's mold is shown on posts #38 and 51 of this thread.

Post 60 of this thread shows the hardtop fastener hardware & a front clamp. Notice that the clamps shown in this 'MrFiat' listing on eBay are very similar to the hardtop 'clamps' that use a toggle bolt to apply the compression force rather than the 'over the center' lever. It looks like they could be easily modified or used as is.
ALFA ROMEO New 102 106 2600 2000 spider Touring soft top frame lock latch holder | eBay

Mark

Last edited by IRONBLOCK; 03-17-2017 at 01:01 PM.
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post #69 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 04:37 PM
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I own a touring made hardtop, but the glass is missing. I will join any effort to get some replacement, be it glass or plastic

Regards

Francisco (Spain)

'74 GTV 2000
'59 2000 touring spider
There is a very fine line between ‘hobby’ and ‘mental illness.’
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post #70 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 04:40 PM
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Mark,

How many different rear windows are there for 2000 and 2600 hard tops? I am guessing at least four, just for the OE tops. Forget the aftermarket tops. Not worth it.

So, the total market for the rear windows is further chopped up by variations. Jay's suspicion that a single blank might be molded, and then cut down to suit the smaller windows strikes me as wishful thinking. Among other things, these windows are going to be tempered at the least, and optimally safety glass, although not necessarily so. I don't think cutting tempered glass is a workable concept.

I've the rear window out of my top, which I believe to be a Mk1 version for the 2000. It may be awhile before I get the top back from the restorer. I don't mind making a mold, but just exactly how does one make a mold that suits a commercial fabricator? I don't know.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #71 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I don't mind making a mold, but just exactly how does one make a mold that suits a commercial fabricator? I don't know.
When I talked to Antti Wihanto of Sicurvetro (and also a local high-end restoration shop) years ago, I was told that the best way is to start with a 1/4" sheet of aluminum and form it the way the glass is supposed to look (and fit) -- and then make a mold from that. I was also told that the glass in the 1940s-'60s contained more lead, which made it more flexible, and therefore less prone to shattering during installation or from vibration/shocks/tension changes during a drive. I'll probably go to a Lexan shop to have my rear windshield on the hardtop made and installed.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #72 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 05:03 PM
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Hi All,

I am also searching for glas or plexi rear window for my 2000 touring hardtop

I have for sale an original 2600 hardtop

is there interest ?


rgds Franco
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post #73 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut View Post
When I talked to Antti Wihanto of Sicurvetro (and also a local high-end restoration shop) years ago, I was told that the best way is to start with a 1/4" sheet of aluminum and form it the way the glass is supposed to look (and fit) -- and then make a mold from that. I was also told that the glass in the 1940s-'60s contained more lead, which made it more flexible, and therefore less prone to shattering during installation or from vibration/shocks/tension changes during a drive. I'll probably go to a Lexan shop to have my rear windshield on the hardtop made and installed.
1/4" aluminum is hard to find, very hard to shape, and fairly expensive.

But.....

Once one finds the aluminum, what are the details on making a mold? Foam? Plaster of Paris? Female only, or also mating side? Release agent?

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #74 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 06:43 PM
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If I recall correctly (don't have the notes), they suggested following "normal glass blowing techniques" by first shaping a wooden device that so that the aluminum piece would lay over it with no gaps, soak it in water, use some type of cloth (also made wet) on the form, heat up a sheet of glass, lay it on the wooden form, then use torches to soften the glass further and until it follows the wooden form, cut the edges, let it cool until it can be removed from the form, and then start the tempering process by selectively heating and cooling the glass.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #75 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 07:52 PM
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I won't be attempting a mold, I guess. I'm not interested in heating and bending my perfectly good screen.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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