History of the 2600 engine?

[davidbir]

Can anybody tell me (and others are interested I am sure) what the history of the Alfa 2600 engine is? When was it originally mooted? By whom? When did it first run? Etc? Ruedi?
David B

[tubut]

From post #63 of this thread (which mentions several 2600 protoypes):

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubut Reading through Giuseppe Busso's "Nel cuore dell'Alfa" this week, I found some interesting references to 2600 development on p. 87-89. Apparently, talks started in 1955 about developing a 6-cyl engine. The purpose was to refresh the 1900 product line and compete more directly with Lancia. The engine was supposed to share much technology with the Giulietta 4-cyl engine. The development project was assigned to Ciaccia and was well underway but mid-1956, but eventually a 2 liter 4-cyl engine was chosen instead of the 6-cyl engine and the 102 series created. In 1957, the 5-speed gearbox was developed for the 2000 but with the 2600 engine clearly in mind. Busso hints that the weight of the 102 cars was too high for the 2000 engine, which leaves room for speculation if, like the gearbox, the 102 bodies were designed with a larger engine in mind also. Finally, in 1960, when the focus was on relatively small cars, Satta gave the OK to start developing what became the 106 model line.

[johnrdm]

Oh yeah, 10,000 rpm - rock and roll!

"Flywheels breaking off" not so good...

[davidbir]

Many thanks Ruedi. You mentioned a little of the history when we met but I am a history buff and like to know these useless bits of information.

The "problem" with the engine shedding flywheels at 7200rpm intrigues me. It could have been solved with modern harmonic damper technology but does the "problem" really exist? Some of you recall Adrian Ratcliffe racing "Piggy" at untold rpm for many seasons. I can confirm this since I was the only other person to race "Piggy". Ratters instructions were to use 8000rpm and no less-this I did whenever possible and if you think it sounded glorious outside the car you should hear it inside! That is one of the reasons I am now using a 2600 engine in my 1948 sports racer project.

[62Bertoneblue]

the 2600 is strong, smooth and can take a beating. I feel like it should have a propeler on the grill ready for take off. There is a book on the greatest car engines and the 2600 is featured as one of the best. I do not remember the tiltle so if anyone knows the name of the book please let me know. This one is in LA, any insight on this?URL="http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C111399/#"]

[tubut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidbir The "problem" with the engine shedding flywheels at 7200rpm intrigues me. It could have been solved with modern harmonic damper technology but does the "problem" really exist?

[davidbir]

I don't think you would have problems with 'thrust reversal' at 7000+rpm. The airflow would be so fast it couldn't occur. The last time I chatted with Ratters about this he mentioned that he used an unmodified Solex manifold with Weber carbs and never felt it was worth going to the trouble of modifying the manifold to de siamese it. It was probably 25 years ago that I raced "Piggy" so my memories are vague - except for the 8000rpm, the sound and the lousy handling!
David B

[D&SW]

is anyone in search of the book 62bertoneblue mentions above? It would seem a worthy effort to see what information can resurrected on the history and assessment of this engine to add to our 2600 "lore."

David

[davidbir]

I spent quite a bit of time on the net looking for it last night-the only possibility I came up with is "Legendary Car Engines" by John Simister. It mentions Alfa Romeo in the write up-I have a used copy coming.

Does this sound familiar 62bertoneblue?

[tubut]

I can see that the Jano-designed 6C 1500/1750/1900 and 8C 2300/2600 engines that were used in Alfa's race cars in the 1920s and the 8C 2900 engine used in the 1930s may have achieved legendary status but the 106 2600 engine has nothing in common with these engines.

I don't think much exciting development for Alfa 6-cyl engines happened thereafter. The 6C 2500 engine is certainly OK for a pre-war design, but post-WWII the Maserati's A6GCS and Jaguar 3.8 engines outshone anything the 6C 2500 and 106 engines had to offer. Much of this had to do with the success of the 1900 and Giulietta engines and the transition from chassis+body to unibody design and Alfa Romeo's shift to lower-cost and bigger market segments.

A notable exception in 6-cyl design is the 3.5 liter 6C 3000 engine, which according to Fusi's "Tutte le vetture..." produced 275 HP @ 6,500 RPM in the 1953 Mille Miglia version. The power curve Fusi shows on p. 490 (an engineering drawing, not a dyno curve) shows no roll-off at the top end, which gives me the impression Alfa engineers had hopes the 6C 3000 engine would rev higher -- maybe as high as the 1.5 liter 8-cyl Alfa 159 Grand Prix engine of 1951 which produced 425 HP @ 9,300 RPM.

The previously mentioned interview with an Alfa engineer that touches on the issue of 3rd-order harmonics on the crankshaft of the 106 engine clearly indicates that Alfa tried to get the 106 engine to rev much higher and, when they were unable to solve the problem within the budget or time allocated, capped the engine at 6,500 RPM.

[davidbir]

Thanks Ruedi, I agree that "legendary" and "106 series" do not go well together!
However, the book was only $5....

I note in Peter Hull's "Alfa Romeo, A History" that the dimensions of the Disco Volante engine as run in the 1953 MM was 88x98 mm which would preclude any very high rpm use from that particular engine.
David B

[62Bertoneblue]

" Legandary car engines" could be the one. It was at a Borders Books in San Francisco about 3 years ago. It very well could be based on the pre-war Alfa's, I remember a photo of a straight 6 alloy dual overhead beauty. The 2600 engines are quoted as being bullet proof and John Lennon owned one, does that count a little for semi legendary?

[tubut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 62Bertoneblue The 2600 engines are quoted as being bullet proof and John Lennon owned one, does that count a little for semi legendary?

[davidbir]

OK, "Legendary Car Engines" has arrived and it does not have any info on the 2600 engine. It does however, have a very nice chapter on the four cylinder Alfa and also a Chapter on the 8C 2300. Also featured in the book are Bentley, Bugatti, Bristol/BMW, Jaguar, Aston-Martin, Coventry Climax and Ford, Chevy and Rover V8s, plus Porsche 911 and VW. Very nicely presented, great photos and some of those wonderful Bob Freeman illustrations that we all miss. A good buy at $5!

[johnrdm]

Relating to Ruedi's post regarding burnt valves on cylinders 5 and 6, due to problems with the brake booster, perhaps one should consider taking the vacuum from the intake plenum (via a new fitting tapped into the underside of the plenum).

Would the vacuum in the plenum be sufficient?

J