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post #46 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2016, 08:36 PM
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I think 18 degrees of cam turning would result in 36 degrees of crank rotation. Pretty simple math.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #47 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-23-2016, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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camshaft timing

Hi All,

This is copy from the book Alfa Owners Bible by Pat Braden

changing Camshaft timing in 105/115 engines

rgds Franco
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post #48 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-23-2016, 03:02 PM
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But you do get that the crank rotates twice as much as the cams, so an 18 degree cam change would result in a 36 degree crank change? I do not believe there is any cam that would benefit from being moved 36 degrees of crank timing from its factory setting.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #49 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-23-2016, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Don and All,

Pat Braden changes 5 holes ( = 5x 1,5 degrees = 7,5 degree ) and this is moving the I mark 1/8 inch or 3,175mm

I want to move 4,5mm= 9 degrees on my 102 engine standard setting (31 inlet/78 outlet ) to ( 40 inlet /69 outlet ) like the 105/115 engines

and in my 2000 manual is written on the page of camshaft settings that 2 degrees = 1mm on camshaft .

but what I not can find if these are camshaft or cranckshaft degrees.........

rgds Franco
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post #50 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-23-2016, 04:57 PM
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Richard may have a more refined opinion, but all of the degrees I've ever seen referring to cams are with respect to crankshaft degrees. Thus, if you intend to move the cam 4 degrees (crank degrees) that would be 2 degrees of cam movement.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #51 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-23-2016, 05:37 PM
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I love this forum; even though it is volatile, sometimes moving at a snail pace sometimes moving rapidly, as this thread has done: started in 2009 continued in 2016. I have a set of Richard's camshaft and unfortunately have not used them,.... yet. With each passing year I get closer to retirement and time to work on my projects and I am archiving these kinds of discussions as they will be critical when I assemble my 2600 spider in the future. Thanks to everyone on this forum for your active participation that allows us wannabes to absorb the information that you so unselfishly share. I look forward to the day when my Alfa and I become reacquainted. 40+ years ago she was my daily driver.

1964 Alfa 2600 Spider (undergoing restoration..), 1979 Jaguar XJ 12L, 1981 Ferrari 308 GTSi, 1986 Porsche Carrera (track car), 2002 Maserati Coupe, 2003 BMW X5 (daily driver)
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post #52 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-23-2016, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franco-veloce View Post
[snip]

and in my 2000 manual is written on the page of camshaft settings that 2 degrees = 1mm on camshaft .

but what I not can find if these are camshaft or cranckshaft degrees.........

rgds Franco
I was just in the process of trying to retrace the logic Franco had applied in the post above with his calculations, when he posted his follow-up. I started by trying to find the source of the "1 mm = 2 degrees" -- and the only source I could find making such a reference was in the following passage of the owners manual:

Attachment 1093433
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My interpretation of this language is the following: If the crankshaft timing marks are aligned (presuming they are accurately pointing to TDC) and the camshaft marks are misaligned with the marks on the camshaft bracket by some significant amount (e.g. due to chain wear or stretching), it's time to re-align the camshafts (and/or replace the chain if the nominal length of 1200 mm is exceeded by more than 5 mm (0.417%)).

Now, I do not believe that the statement of "more than 2 (about 1 mm)" is correct (i.e. I believe it's blatantly false and/or misleading) because the calculation "360/2=180" indicates this value would be correct for a circle with a circumference of 180 mm -- which translates to a diameter of (180 mm / Pi = 57.2957795 mm) or almost exactly 2-1/4 inches. This pretty much rules out any notions regarding "1 mm" relating to camshaft and/or crankshaft markings (because the diameter of the camshaft bearing is smaller and the crankshaft pulley is larger than 57.xx mm).

So, what gives? My advice would be (with the exceptions of chain length and valve lift), forget about any notions of "mm" when it comes to crankshaft or camshaft positioning or valve timing. Think in degrees only and how camshaft degrees relate to crankshaft degrees in context of TDC.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now being restored in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).

Last edited by tubut; 08-23-2016 at 10:25 PM.
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post #53 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-24-2016, 07:03 AM
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Timing

Don, isn`t there a cam timing "Lobe Center" mark on these engine`s cam caps as are on all of all the later cars? If so what is the LCs on the engines with factory cams?

Since each hole moves the cam 1.5 degrees (3 degrees LC as it is measured at the crank) a 1 hole movement typically is an adequate movement using the cam/cap timing marks

Before moving cams in the manner being suggested earlier (mm) in this thread I suggest reading the following from my PDF file on timing cams and piston to valve clearance.

Quote:
CAM SET UP NOTES
Piston to Valve Clearance Check

This is very important since when cams are advanced the piston clearance reduces dramatically, and Lobe re-design can effectively advance the valve opening.

Set Intake and exhaust cams at initial LCs as indicated by my set up instructions, and lash settings.

By running the .050 plastic wire-tie between the Intake valve & piston, and .075 - .080 on the Exhaust side you can check if there is any interference and see that you have adequate clearance between piston & valve. If by turning motor over by hand you feel some interferance using a .050 thick wire-tie, (or .075 on the Exhaust) but the motor continues to roll through, you are at the limit! YOU MUST ROLL THE MOTOR OVER OVER BOTH FORWARDS & BACKWARDS TO BE SURE THERE IS CLEARANCE AT THE LIMITS!! REMEMBER, WHEN OFF THROTTLE THE CHAIN TENSION POTENTIALLY CAN REVERSE!!
If it locks up, retard the cam on the intake side, (or advance on the exhaust side) to get more clearance. and try again until the clearance is found.

Each hole on the vernier sprocket changes the cam timing 1.5 degrees at the cam (3 degrees at the crank).
I suggest as a test to find this limit, you advance the intake cam until you do find the minimum needed clearance, and permanently mark that point on the cam cap. That will be the point where the cam must NOT be advanced past. Then do the same with the exhaust only retarding it until the limit is found. Timing initially is dependent on design of cam lobe. Aggressive large duration cams will be more retarded.(intake) and advanced (exhaust) because of ramp & valve lift in order to fit in a engine that is already assembled and valve relief's not designed for large cams. Tighten and install lock nut on intake and bolt through sprocket and cam nut. Inspect carefully. Roll the crank over by hand to verify timing. When the intake cam is at the limit, or LC setting whichever is less advanced. You are there!
RICHARD JEMISON

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #54 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-24-2016, 07:19 AM
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Richard,

All of the 102s I've played with have timing marks on both the cam and cap, much as with 105s, etc. I've seen some degree of variation in how they look, but perhaps this is just cosmetic rather than having some engines marked differently than others.

I don't have my manuals at hand to look up the LC. Perhaps I should build a handy bookcase next to my favorite reading spot?

I'll see if I can ferret it out today or tomorrow.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...

Last edited by DPeterson3; 08-24-2016 at 05:01 PM.
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post #55 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-24-2016, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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cam timing 2300 RIO alcool

Hi All,

FYI


I found this info about the 2300 RIO alcool

see attachment:

the camtiming is different then the standard 2300 engine

and also ignition timing is different .

rgds Franco
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post #56 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-24-2016, 07:47 PM
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When considering the "hotter" camshaft timing used by some in racing Giulia and 1750 engines, it might be wise to consider the differences in stroke between those engines and the 2000/2600. The longer stroke of the larger engine will limit the revs a bit while also changing the flow dynamics considerably due to the differently changing velocity of the fuel-air mix as the piston descends and rises in the bore, whether the charge is unburned or already combusted. A "hot" camshaft timing that works well in the smaller engine might well be somewhat overly hopeful and quite counterproductive in a 2000/2600. Supercharging (of any type) may require decreasing the valve overlap in order to get best results and there will be a different "ideal" for mechanically driven supercharging or exhaust-driven supercharging (i.e. "turbocharging"). Note: During the early 1930's, the Italian press often referred to a supercharged Alfa Romeo as "turbo" or "turbocompressore" even though the supercharger was mechanically driven.

John
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post #57 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-25-2016, 06:10 AM
Richard Jemison
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Cam timing

Contrary to the info I received from my "Wast Coast Wife", Franco`s cams were bearing timing marks for both intake and exh on both cams.

Each of these 102 series cams have timing marks for both intake and exhaust. The timing marks unlike the 101-116 versions do not have timing marks with 180 degrees separation, but have timing marks separated by "something around" 120 degrees which compensates for the angle of the mounts for the cam caps on these heads.

Franco, I highlighted these marks on both cams.

If these cams are positioned (timed) so that the cam mark is just outside (outside meaning to the intake side of the cam cap mark on the intake side, and to the exh side on the exh cam cap side) then that will position the cams with wider LSAs and larger LCs.

The info below applies to all Alfa engines with the vernier sprockets:

If you move one hole on the vernier sprocket, that is 3 degrees at the crank (and indicated LC). That`s the minimum movement you can make.
If you accurately set the exhaust camshaft mark so the trailing edge of the cam mark is parallel to the outer (trailing) edge of the cap mark that is a 2 degree movement (crank/LC) from the factory cam mark position.
Same for the intake side only the leading edge of the cam mark will be parallel to the outer (leading) edge of the cap mark.

Now: if the cam marks are outside of the cap mark by no more than a full width of the marks between the edges of the mark that indicates almost exactly a 4 degree change from the factory mark.

To be a bit more clear on distances the width of the typical cam mark is the same as the width of the this- l-.

I dictate cam timing for the setup sheets in the boxes with all of my cams in "Lobe Centers" and on that timing sheet there are measurable timing events in degrees based on the LCs and Lash measurements I give them on ordering the cams built.

Since most buyers install the cams using LCs, (as a degree wheel isn`t typically usable in an installed motor), this is a simple procedure. Particularly with cams designed for street use without extreme lift and duration changes.

These street cams (RjR590/45)actually reduce the overlap from factory designs. Timing is given to maximize the power stroke regardless of engine design (stroke etc).

Franco: forget the 2300 RIO info. Totally different application.

FYI: Moving the cam by the larger #s of holes described in Pat Braden`s book can cause engine damage and isn`t reliable info. Particularly with early Veloce cams and later 10548 cams.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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Last edited by Alfar7; 08-25-2016 at 06:18 AM.
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post #58 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-27-2016, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
Don, isn`t there a cam timing "Lobe Center" mark on these engine`s cam caps as are on all of all the later cars?
Yes. The 2600 has the same LC timing marks setup as the later 105/115 engines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
If so what is the LCs on the engines with factory cams?
2600 Tech Specs manual #912 R1, confirmed by Info Sheet #0.00.064, say, after doing the math, the LCs on the Sedan engines are 106 for both intake and exhaust. The Sprint and Spider LCs are 115 intake and 112 exhaust.
The Sedans were fitted with cam #106.00.03.200.01 while the Sprint and Spider originally had 106.01.03.200.00 cams.

Jim

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post #59 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-27-2016, 06:59 AM
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Cam timing

Then, IF, the computations are correct and both 2600 LCs are 106, then setting the faster ramp rate, higher lift cams at those marks should work pretty well. IThe 104/104LCs I specified should be an improvement to a small degree due to the lower duration at the lash setting to change valve events.

I wonder what the LCs are on the 102 engines are? Jim?

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #60 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-27-2016, 07:29 AM
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Richard,

Yes, both cams for the 102 (and 2300) are marked for use on either side.

The Rio 2300 info provided in the above copy is indicative of only home-market cars. The export engines were higher compression, dual ADDHE carb units.

It will be informative to find out the stock cam timing for both the 2000 and 2300 versions (sprint/spider, not 2000 sedan).

When I reviewed the documents, the export 2300 showed the same cam timing as the sprint/spider 2000. I think it was also the same as for the 2600 non-sedan engine.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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