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post #16 of 770 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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As a reminder, I'm trying to segregate the posts into two areas. This area is for the restoration of the car, and this area (Rio 2300 overhaul + higher compression 102) is for the work on the FNM/Rio 2300 engine.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #17 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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I've been hacking, sawing, sanding, welding, and cursing. The real question is what to do about the sills. The inner and outer sill structures are largely usable, with a couple of patches to be welded into smallish areas. However, there is an inner structure of fairly thin bent sheet metal inside between the inner and outer sill (not referring to the rocker body panel, but to the inner beefy structure with lightening holes). Various portions of my internal stuff has returned to nature, while other bits are just crusty. To replace the inner pieces will require major surgery, probably via removal of most of the inner sill (this is the part that is exposed to the interior). That is worrying. The shape of the car could never be recovered, and there's no guarantee that we can replace what is inside the sills in a manner that would replace whatever strength they are providing. Given the thin gauge of this stuff, I can't figure what it was doing structurally in any case. Anyone got a comment?

I'm considering going up through the gap between the inner and outer sill, and welding in a thicker-section strip that bridges the gap between the two sills. In the original, this bridge section is part of an ell-shaped piece, and of fairly thin gauge. By replacing it with a thicker flat ribbon of steel, I think I'll recover whatever bending strength was previously provided, but without open-heart surgery.

Meanwhile, can we pass a law that allows us to seriously pummel anyone approaching an Alfa with a pop-rivet gun?

Gack.

Don

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #18 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:56 PM
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Don

I'm pretty sure this is what was done on my car

Using an old road sign! The strange photo below shows the view to the side of the rear seat . The green steel piece (the road sign) extends down between the cills as you describe. The ace who "restored" my car in about 1992 then added Jaguar XJ6 coupe outer cills (rockers) and it has passed the British MOT - roadworthiness test every year since then!
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post #19 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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Red Merlin,

In your opinion, are the Jag rockers a good choice? There are, of course, no originals, so a good starting point is quite attractive. What year XJ6?

Thanks,

Don

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #20 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 11:08 PM
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Don, This looks like quite a project. Great photos! Keep 'em coming because I will be following in your footsteps with mine in time. I don't think (at least I hope) it will need quite as much work with the welder, but I have not yet begun poking around with a screwdriver.
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post #21 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 02:27 AM
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The XJ6 cills look OK - I believe from a coupe (rare) fitted because they were about the right length - a purist will notice the curvature is not the same as the original also they have no jacking points

Please search other threads on rockers - there is a guy in Belgium making replacements so there should be no need to go the XJ6 route now
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post #22 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-27-2009, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Red,

I've been in touch with Erik in Belgium. It remains an option. There is always the desirability of local sourcing, and reduced freight costs compared with shipping from Belgium. Also, there is no guarantee that Erik's parts are any more correct than adapting from something else. We'll see.

Interesting comment about the jacking points. My car has the jacking supports below the rocker panel much like most other Alfas I've had. I don't see any cut-outs or other accommodation for the jacking points required in the rocker panels.

Don

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #23 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-27-2009, 11:54 AM
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Don
I'm sure this picture won't help but here are some panels I've had from Erik in Belgium.
The sills,(each side) come in three parts the centre section then the front curve into the wheelarch and the same at the rear. You have to cut the end pieces in half (if you see what I mean).
So in the photo you can see two centre section sills and one of the front double ended sections. Also a pair of wheel arch repairs for both front and rear.
Regards
Bryan
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post #24 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-27-2009, 12:48 PM
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Jacking points and rocker

Don

I wonder where my jacking points went then? - I guess lost in the major surgery in 92

Rockers, I'd go for the Eric optrion - XJ6 coupe rockers only help as they come in one piece and are long enough. But look from the photo that they will need a lot of mods to fit and are clearly ( as on my car ) much rounder than Erics replicas.

Ian
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post #25 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-27-2009, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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Bryan and Ian (I guess that's better than "Red"),

Thanks for the update. I got some quotes from Erik and will probably go ahead and order some bits. Mainly the rockers and floorboards. The rest appears easier to fabricate here.

The jacking points are pretty much identical to what I recall on my 105 stuff, ie little rectangular-section bits welded onto the bottom of the sill structure that the jack tang inserts into. These are entirely below the rocker panels. Ian, your picture isn't all that clear to me, but it vaguely appears that something resembling the jacking point is still present just below the front of your blue sill structure. Meanwhile, I'm confused. That doesn't look like a 102 Roadster to me at all, given the hardtop and all the other details.

Don

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #26 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-27-2009, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
Bryan and Ian (I guess that's better than "Red"),

Thanks for the update. I got some quotes from Erik and will probably go ahead and order some bits. Mainly the rockers and floorboards. The rest appears easier to fabricate here.

The jacking points are pretty much identical to what I recall on my 105 stuff, ie little rectangular-section bits welded onto the bottom of the sill structure that the jack tang inserts into. These are entirely below the rocker panels. Ian, your picture isn't all that clear to me, but it vaguely appears that something resembling the jacking point is still present just below the front of your blue sill structure. Meanwhile, I'm confused. That doesn't look like a 102 Roadster to me at all, given the hardtop and all the other details.

Don
Don:

I think that is an XJ6 Coupe photo that was attached to illustrate the length of the sills.

Arno
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post #27 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-27-2009, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Well, that explains the extreme difference to an Alfa 102 Roadster!

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #28 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-28-2009, 01:48 AM
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Don and Ian
I cannot vouch for the correct curvature in Eriks sills as my car had no outer sills when acquired (yes I know NEVER buy a part restored dismantled car!)
His arches when offered up did seem to match closely (exactly). As did the end of the sills that flow into the arch curve. All I would say about Eriks panels (and it is NOT a criticism) is if people are used to repair panels from the likes of BMH for MG and Triumph cars these are much "cruder" as hand produced panels, but then the 2600 was a hand built car. On very tight radii Erik makes small cuts to allow the metal to move into shape( on out of sight areas), this saves a lot of stretching of the metal by hand, where as if this were pressed by a 150 tonne press, it would form the curve in a hit.
The photo shows my sills from the rear arch as I acquired the car, the previous owner had floors repaired and the inner siills done so structurely the car should be OK I've "just" got to do is hang the pretty bits onto the structure. Be on the road by the summer ............201??????
Regards
Bryan
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post #29 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-29-2009, 08:44 AM
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Just a note of encouragement on your restoration.

So few of these cars are restored to the level which you have undertaken. Though you may have been tempted at times to throw the car away, it is a far better thing that you do (whatever compromises must be made along the way) so that one more 102 can survive.

Watching the thread with interest...
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post #30 of 770 (permalink) Old 03-30-2009, 06:53 AM Thread Starter
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Nah, no temptation to give up. Cars are easy. After several aircraft restorations, this car stuff is a walk in the park. With a car, you can just cut out the rust, weld in something that looks OK and provides reasonable strength, then paint over it. With an airplane, it has to be exactly as original, plus often there is a legal aspet to what part you can use.

Cars are easy. Just do a little something every day, and about 3 years later, you gotta car.

Don

PS - oh yeah, and write a lot of checks, but for comparison sake, the last 4 cylinder antique aircraft engine I overhauled cost about $15k. I can do this 102 engine for a couple of thou. Walk in the park.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
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