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Old 04-29-2008, 07:52 AM
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Alfissimo Int. Alfissimo Int. is offline
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24V Timing Tensioner

Part Update:

60574475 is Out of Production.
24V timing belt tensioner


Not sure what and if there is a substitute yet. Not sure if the newer style 24V mechanical tensioner similar to the 12V will work or not, my guess is no at this point.

Jason
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Old 04-29-2008, 05:31 PM
Alfisto Steve Alfisto Steve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
Part Update:

60574475 is Out of Production.
24V timing belt tensioner


Not sure what and if there is a substitute yet. Not sure if the newer style 24V mechanical tensioner similar to the 12V will work or not, my guess is no at this point.

Jason
I bet this is the company WHO MADE/MAKES THE 24V 164 TENSIONER as name TSUBAKI is typed in description update column on Alfa parts CD next to part number.
Automotive Parts | TSUBAKIMOTO CHAIN GROUP
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Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

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Old 04-29-2008, 08:15 PM
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treborblack treborblack is offline
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this is the part i asked about last week
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:54 PM
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Alfissimo Int. Alfissimo Int. is offline
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I am ordering in some newer detensioners as I am certain these are going to be the replacement for the older style.
I will have info on adjustment as soon as I can. I will confirm with alfa someday soon.
This will be a less expensive repair if bearing and tensioner are going. Instead of $290 for the tensioner, $151 for the bearing, the price for the new style is around $125.00

Procedure:
Changing a cam belt is one of the most difficult service jobs on an Alfa Romeo and should only be attempted by a skilled motor mechanic with the correct tools. As such, this is just an overview so you know what is being done to your car.
Alfa Romeo V6 24 valve Engine

The first thing to do is to remove the right hand front wheel and under tray and right hand side engine bay cover, making sure the car is lifted in a safe manner and supported on axle stands.
Plenum removed

Then you have to remove the plenum chamber this is only secured by two allen keys hidden down behind it and once these are removed you have to disconnect all the pipes and wires from it, including the chrome inlet tubes, and then the engine breather pipe has to be removed from the rocker cover as you can’t pull the plenum back with it in place; now the plenum will pull off, on some models you will have to disconnect the engine management unit
Alfa Romeo V6 engine rear coil packs

Once you have removed the plenum chamber you can then remove the rear coil packs, these are secured by four 10mm nuts. when refitting the plenum make sure that you don't trap any of the wires to the coil packs and be sure that you are happy with the spark plugs and coil caps as they are difficult to get back to if there is a problem when the car starts up again.


It is probably best to remove the front cam cover next and then remove the front coil packs and get them out of the way by laying them over to the left of the engine bay.
Cam locking tool on inlet camshaft

Now both rocker covers have to come off, this entails loosening three of the chrome inlet tubes in order to get at the securing 6mm allen keys on the rear cylinder head and be careful with the dip stick securing bracket on the front head once this is off the engine needs to be turned over until the cam locking tools fit and these should now go on their respective camshafts.
DTI down number 1 cylinder

Number one plug can now be removed and the DTI can be fitted in its place.
Cam belt cover removed

Now we have to remove the auxiliary belt and both its tensioner and idler and it is also best to remove the lower crankshaft pulley at this point. Next remove the covers from the cam belt, the upper cover is secured by three fasteners and then it pulls vertically upwards to remove.
Cam covers removed

Remove the auxiliary drive pulley and then both the lower covers are accessible these are secured by three 5mm allen keys and these are a bit tricky to get to and will include much skinning of knuckles. The cam belt is now accessible and can be removed by loosening its tensioner.
Before refitting it is worth considering fitting a water pump especially on the 2.5 V6 as the plastic impeller cracks and causes problems with engine cooling. It is always necessary to replace the tensioner as they wear out and if they break they will destroy your engine. In order to refit the cam belt it is necessary to loosen all the cam drive pulleys as they need to rotate to get the correct tension on the belt, once they are loose, tension the belt and then do up the pulley securing bolts.

From here on it is only a case of reversing the above procedure.


More later
j
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Tel: +1 480-858-9156 | Service: Tel +1 480-330-0844
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<1991' 164 QV, White- Recaro>

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Old 05-01-2008, 07:49 PM
john.harrill john.harrill is offline
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So, the replacement tensioning device is mechanical?
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1957 Giulietta Spider
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1978 Spider
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Those that have passed on:
1966 Guilia Sprint GT
1964 Guilia Spider
1959 Giulietta Spider
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:10 PM
Alfisto Steve Alfisto Steve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john.harrill View Post
So, the replacement tensioning device is mechanical?
New one looks like it should work.

But as for one on engine it looks like a homemade one made for old style tensioner. What is that a 24v engine set up with a Milano oil pan?

See new tensioner on ebay

eBay Motors: ALFA ROMEO 164 LS 24V TIMING TENSIONER (item 110248203672 end time May-06-08 08:24:17 PDT)
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http://www.aroc-usa.org/

Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 05-01-2008 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:55 PM
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Alfissimo Int. Alfissimo Int. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisto Steve View Post
New one looks like it should work.

But as for one on engine it looks like a homemade one made for old style tensioner. What is that a 24v engine set up with a Milano oil pan?

See new tensioner on ebay

eBay Motors: ALFA ROMEO 164 LS 24V TIMING TENSIONER (item 110248203672 end time May-06-08 08:24:17 PDT)
Yeah the picture just happens to be the only one I have (24V into a Milano with manual adjusted tensioner)but it shows you can turn it into a manual adjustment device.

So yes the newer ones from the 3.2L 24V is a mechanical. Should not be an issue.
Actually this should make timing much easier.

Jason
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:05 AM
g84 g84 is offline
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Will it bolt right on? That tensioner is made for the newer 24V engines where the tensioner is located where the oilpump drive wheel is located on older ones.

JK
164 Q4 -95
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Last edited by g84; 05-02-2008 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 05-02-2008, 07:45 AM
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Alfissimo Int. Alfissimo Int. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g84 View Post
Will it bolt right on? That tensioner is made for the newer 24V engines where the tensioner is located where the oilpump drive wheel is located on older ones.

JK
164 Q4 -95
Not sure yet. Not 100% But we need to come up with something for the future as there is no replacement.
I understand it fits in a different spot but it could work. But I really hope to have an answer back from the tensioner manufacturer soon.
The other issue is I think the tensioner bearing is on it's way out too.
Although I do have the bearings for those, so no big deal.

I just wanted to mention to the 24V owners, PLEASE DON'T GET TOO EXCITED!! MOST LIKELY THOSE TENSIONERS WILL LAST FOR A LONG TIME. THEY REALLY DO NOT ADJUST MUCH SO THERE IS NOT TOO MUCH TO GO WRONG.
BUT I HAVE HAD TO REPLACE THEM BEFORE. SO I AM WORKING ON SOMETHING IN-CASE THAT HAPPENS, SOME BACK UP IF YOU WILL.
HERE IS THE NEW SET-UP THE TENSIONER IS FROM:



J
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Old 05-02-2008, 07:59 AM
g84 g84 is offline
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Beairings going out as well, then we are soon in big trouble up here in the north. Belt changes is done every 3800 miles or every three years here because of the harsh climate.

JK
164 Q4 -95
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:18 AM
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Alfissimo Int. Alfissimo Int. is offline
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Quote:
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Beairings going out as well, then we are soon in big trouble up here in the north. Belt changes is done every 3800 miles or every three years here because of the harsh climate.

JK
164 Q4 -95
Just the timing bearing, not the idlers. But as mentioned I have a source that is still making those. made by FAG not SKF. Just have to press out old bearing center and press in.

J
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:48 AM
SovraPressione SovraPressione is offline
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the soulution

Jason,

I have always have felt that the Tsubaki tensioners (ones on 94-95 LS V624V) was made to solve the problems faced by the tensioners on the earlier 12V versions, which as we all know has been a tug of war between oil tensioners and the mechanical type as far as the relaibility stakes are concerned. We also have the Tom Zat version along the way.
The Tsubaki tensioners have always been reliable all this while (Its Japanese made isn't it!) and I think I have seen a pic of the timing belt system of a Ferrari 355 V8 posted somewhere in this forum using the "Tsubaki" type tensioner as well. In this respect I think the newer generation V6 24V have gone one step backwards "engineering wise" to save cost (FIAT bean counters hard at work!) but it should not be a problem if the components are changed according to the schedule given(fingers crossed!). Moreover the oil pumps are not driven by the timing belts anymore and hence lesser stress on the timing belt which has also been shortened now.(So there is no way the newer type will fit in directly)

I believe you already have one simple solution on the attached pic of the V624V with the Milano oil pan.Do you know the owner? perhaps he can give some feedbacks on its reliability to date. The concept is somewhat similar to the Zat tensioner with adjustable screws. If periodically the air gap are checked via those 1/8" and 3/16" "drill bits insertion" procedures and the 'home made' screws are tightened up accordingly to maintain those specified gaps then we might have a device (coupled up to your SKF to FAG bearings change)that would outlast the life of the car itself!! ..just My 2 cents view actually.

Lets hope that panic strickened Alfa 94-95 LS owners around the world will not rush to their nearest Alfa parts shop to stockpile the tsubaki tensioners !!
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:57 AM
john.harrill john.harrill is offline
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Back on my soapbox again.....

...about the degree to which the belt wraps around the cam pulleys.

I'm struck by two things in the picture of the new routing of the timing belt: First, the belt is in contact with more teeth of the cam cogs, especially the exhaust cam for cylinders 1, 2, & 3. This is the one that is prone to slip.

Second, it appears that the cam cogs are more enclosed (From behind) than on the earlier version. This can only help those of us who tend to drop things down there.
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1957 Giulietta Spider
1988 Quadrifoglio
1978 Spider
2002 VW Passat Wagon

Running Again and Code Free:
1994 164LS

Those that have passed on:
1966 Guilia Sprint GT
1964 Guilia Spider
1959 Giulietta Spider
1991 Mazda Protege LX
1988 Mazda 323
1969 Chevy Nova (350)
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:08 AM
john.harrill john.harrill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SovraPressione View Post
Jason,

I have always have felt that the Tsubaki tensioners (ones on 94-95 LS V624V) was made to solve the problems faced by the tensioners on the earlier 12V versions, which as we all know has been a tug of war between oil tensioners and the mechanical type as far as the relaibility stakes are concerned. We also have the Tom Zat version along the way.
The Tsubaki tensioners have always been reliable all this while (Its Japanese made isn't it!) and I think I have seen a pic of the timing belt system of a Ferrari 355 V8 posted somewhere in this forum using the "Tsubaki" type tensioner as well. In this respect I think the newer generation V6 24V have g