04-23-2008, 05:26 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Birmingham, England
Posts: 171
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24v cambelt tensioner
Why are they obsolete and what are my options. when changing the belt do i therefore just change the rollers and wait for the engine to go bang
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Driving a September 1996 super like i stole it 
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04-23-2008, 05:41 AM
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Location: VB, VA
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Test it off engine. If piston can not be pushed in at all by putting piston against hard surface and pushing by hand on body it should be good. Then put in vise and try to compress piston SLOWLY by tightening vise. It should be very hard to compress. DO NOT TRY TO COMPRESS FAST, JUST VERIFY THERE IS NO FREE PLAY IN PISTON BEFORE IT IS SLOW TO COMPRESS. Once it is compressed in vise open vise jaws and piston should extend pretty fast.
SLOWLY compress in vise again and insert 1/16" rig pin (drill rod) into body and through piston so you can install timing belt then do belt tensioning process.
If you need a new tensioner see Di Fatta Brothers - Alfa Romeo and Fiat Parts Sales and Service and email them to get a new one if UK doesn't have any.
Can't figure out why you guys in UK have such a hard time getting 164 parts.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 04-25-2008 at 02:55 PM.
Reason: EDITIED VISE CHECK PROCESS
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04-23-2008, 05:57 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Birmingham, England
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As Alfa's go the 164 was a very poor seller. i dont know the sales figures.
But they rarely come up for sale so i guess it's supply and demand thing.
As for the cambelt change, other than the cambelt and tensioner what else would you change?
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Driving a September 1996 super like i stole it
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04-23-2008, 12:45 PM
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Registered Alfa Addict
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tempe, Arizona-US
Posts: 3,555
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by treborblack
As Alfa's go the 164 was a very poor seller. i dont know the sales figures.
But they rarely come up for sale so i guess it's supply and demand thing.
As for the cambelt change, other than the cambelt and tensioner what else would you change?
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They are going to be N/A but I have a few laying around and a few more in Europe waiting to be sent.
I stocked up as I heard they where going bye bye. Folks in the UK have a very hard time with these parts.
Please see my site. I carry most everything and anything for the 164, UK models included.
Jason
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04-23-2008, 01:30 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 61
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How com they are going N/A its not long ago they stopped make the engine.
Try this firm in Netherlands Firma Tuynder
site is not in english but its very easy to see what you need and just click to get a quote or order.
JK
164 Q4-95
Last edited by g84; 04-23-2008 at 01:34 PM.
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04-23-2008, 01:49 PM
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Registered Alfa Addict
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tempe, Arizona-US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g84
How com they are going N/A its not long ago they stopped make the engine.
Try this firm in Netherlands Firma Tuynder
site is not in english but its very easy to see what you need and just click to get a quote or order.
JK
164 Q4-95 |
Jason
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04-23-2008, 03:04 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
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John H's failed but that is first one I have heard off. I gave him Myron's old one which was fine but his repair shop changed it anyway but mistimed the cams so I had to do job over again for him.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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04-23-2008, 03:53 PM
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I have a 1995 24v which ran fine until the oil seals went on the spark plug wells and filled the rear plugs with oil. Changed all these seals and cam cover gaskets and re-asembled but still running rough on rear bank. New plugs made no difference and the engine runs worse as it warms, which led many to think it was the insulation breaking down on the coil packs. Changed those on the rear bank but it still isn't right.
Wedging the throttle pedal in neutral to keep the engine at a constant 3000rpm, pulled off all 6 injector connectors, one at a time, and each one had an effect yet all the rear ones had a weak effect while all the front ones had a stronger effect.
Could this be cam timing gone wrong on the rear bank all of a sudden? If so what is involved to check it? The injectors are all fine by the way - had them all sent for ultrasound cleaning etc and the report said they were fine even before it. HELP!!!! Please!
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04-23-2008, 06:00 PM
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Location: VB, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardbradford
I have a 1995 24v which ran fine until the oil seals went on the spark plug wells and filled the rear plugs with oil. Changed all these seals and cam cover gaskets and re-asembled but still running rough on rear bank. New plugs made no difference and the engine runs worse as it warms, which led many to think it was the insulation breaking down on the coil packs. Changed those on the rear bank but it still isn't right.
Wedging the throttle pedal in neutral to keep the engine at a constant 3000rpm, pulled off all 6 injector connectors, one at a time, and each one had an effect yet all the rear ones had a weak effect while all the front ones had a stronger effect.
Could this be cam timing gone wrong on the rear bank all of a sudden? If so what is involved to check it? The injectors are all fine by the way - had them all sent for ultrasound cleaning etc and the report said they were fine even before it. HELP!!!! Please!
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see 24v cam timing TSB's here: Alfa 164 Service Bulletins
__________________
Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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04-24-2008, 02:45 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 228
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Damn, hoped it would be an easier fix. Does this also mean new belts? Mine have done 35000 miles since the last change - service intervals 72000.
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04-24-2008, 04:37 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 7,585
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Alfa 164 24 Valve Timing Belt Campaign
Refer to Alfa Tech Service Bulletin 01.97.01
Inspect for "Type A" belt 60561244 new style belt. It has rounded cog teeth.
Old Style belt "Type B" has rounded cog teeth BUT with indention in middle of each rounded tooth.
Replace Type B with A.
If there is a white check mark on timing belt cover inspection has been done.
As for mileage if you have to retime cams and retension belt I would replace it.
__________________
Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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04-24-2008, 12:04 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisto Steve
Refer to Alfa Tech Service Bulletin 01.97.01
Inspect for "Type A" belt 60561244 new style belt. It has rounded cog teeth.
Old Style belt "Type B" has rounded cog teeth BUT with indention in middle of each rounded tooth.
Replace Type B with A.
If there is a white check mark on timing belt cover inspection has been done.
As for mileage if you have to retime cams and retension belt I would replace it.
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That is what I was afraid of. Can't afford the £500 a garage will charge so going to have to do it myself - bit different to the last cambelt I did, on a 1.5 4-pot X1/9... Going to learn a lot, not doubt.
Thanks a lot for the help Steve. Really greatful,
Richard
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07-11-2008, 05:03 PM
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Some time later....
Today got a new cambelt on the 24v, 1995, and had put white marks on the old belt and cam wheels/crank prior to its removal. New belt is not tensioned up yet, tensioner still to be fitted, and the white marks transfered to the new belt indicate that, with the cams and crank in position, the belt needs to move another tooth across the front cam wheels for there to be the correct amount of belt/teeth between the cams. Obviously this is going to add load to the entire belt and my friend seems to think it might be best to remove the idler that sits between the cams, to get more slack at the top end and then to add the tensioner pulley, with minimal tension and then re-fit the top idler before doing a final 'tighten up' via the tensioner. Would double check all remains lined up after manually turning the engine over a few times but my question is this:
If all the other gubbins is connected how difficult is it going to be to then refit the top idler pulley, consider the load it would be under?
By the way, I have paint marks on my cam pulleys that point to each other when they are aligned, hence this approach.
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07-17-2008, 05:04 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardbradford
Some time later....
Today got a new cambelt on the 24v, 1995, and had put white marks on the old belt and cam wheels/crank prior to its removal. New belt is not tensioned up yet, tensioner still to be fitted, and the white marks transfered to the new belt indicate that, with the cams and crank in position, the belt needs to move another tooth across the front cam wheels for there to be the correct amount of belt/teeth between the cams. Obviously this is going to add load to the entire belt and my friend seems to think it might be best to remove the idler that sits between the cams, to get more slack at the top end and then to add the tensioner pulley, with minimal tension and then re-fit the top idler before doing a final 'tighten up' via the tensioner. Would double check all remains lined up after manually turning the engine over a few times but my question is this:
If all the other gubbins is connected how difficult is it going to be to then refit the top idler pulley, consider the load it would be under?
By the way, I have paint marks on my cam pulleys that point to each other when they are aligned, hence this approach.
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18th July 2008 - some months after it all began - today I got the new cambelt on, lined up correctly and the engine runs beautifully again! Didn't use camlocks or a tensioner tool - just the paint marks and a pair of thin-nosed pliers. Once the new belt was roughly in place it took another hour to get everything almost exactly in place, and then another half an hour to correct that as had forgotten to allow for the additional belt marks, painted on the front and rear cam pairs by myself, being one tooth out - as per the original one tooth out error that had made it run rough in the first place.
Had planned to take pics of the process but never got round to it and it was getting dark anyway but a VERY BIG THANK YOU to all those who contributed to this thread along the way.
As it was an intermediate belt change, at 105 000 miles, inspired by both the rear exhaust cam being one tooth out and the discovery of belt impact damage, didn't change the tensioner pulley or the idler pulley between the cams (despite having a new one sitting on my shelf). This top idler on the car felt fine and didn't want to risk losing the nut off it's bolt in the bottom of the V6, with the risk of repeated belt impact damage. The front idler didn't feel good and this was replaced and the strange, intermittent 'squeak' from that part of the engine, which I had always previously thought was the top serpentine belt idler pulley nearby, has vanished.
Despite all the hassle I consider it to be a lucky escape from two potential engine-trashing, belt-failure causes: idler failure and unnoticed impact belt damage. Thank God for the rough running from that one tooth out cam. Never thought I'd say that
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07-17-2008, 06:58 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
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Good to hear you were able to time it and move forward.
__________________
Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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