91 164L Clutch Master Cylinder Kit?

[donliznev]

Folks,

I can see no sign of a rebuild kit for the clutch MC, only for the slave cylinder.
Is there a particular reason that the MC is not servicable?

The PO (2 years ago) indicated that MC and SC were replaced but I have serious doubts having just seen the state of the fluid which drained out.

It is the dirtiest fluid I have seen in my life, flowing out in two colors and immediately (black/rust color) separating in the receptacle.

By now they should be about 3 years old with about 5000 miles since replacement.

The MC looks new on the outside but maybe that is due to it being located inside the car.
The SC looks old to me.
Both MC and SC look very good on the inside with no pitting or scoring.

The inside of the fluid reservoir was coated in gunge.

The clutch pedal would not return to full out position.

I think I need to bleed the whole clutch and brake system since they share the same fluid.

Neville.

[ChazzyD]

Clutch masters are cheap. I wouldn't waste the time rebuilding one.
Charles

[donliznev]

Folks,

Well, the MC arrived together with a kit for the SC so I was back at it again today having had the Alfa standing for two weeks awaiting parts.
The SC kit is incorrect so that will have to go back to the supplier.
Meanwhile I put back the old SC rubbers as they were not the original problem in any case, and we need to get the car back on the road for the Teen.

In the interim whilst awaiting the parts I went further and removed the fluid reservoir which had about an eighth of an inch of black gunge in the bottom.
I flushed out the pipes as well.
I cannot understand how the fluid was actually getting through to the MC....maybe it wasn't and thats what caused the MC failure.
The fluid sensor was also full of black crud.
I should have taken pictures......

The clutch is now back in action and appears to work fine although the car has not yet been started as the coolant reservoir is not yet back in place.

The saga continues with brake bleeding as the brakes and clutch share the same reservoir...........and this is wherein lies the proof that the two PO's have likely never changed the hydraulic fluid since 1991.
The immediate PO claimed to be a certified Ferrari mechanic who also worked on these Alfa's, which was the main reason I purchased this particular Alfa.
He claimed to have replaced the clutch, MC and SC amongst many other vital parts.
The MC looked new and I could see signs of work in that area as the cover was gone, but the crud in the fluid must have caused early failure.
The SC does not look new, although a kit may have been used.

Hoo boy, I am going to have to start from scratch and revisit all the vital parts.....

I cannot loosen the caliber bleed nipples and already one is now rounded so that the number eight wrench no longer grips.

I hope these really do loosen anti-clockwise like any other normal bleed nipple....?

Has anyone any ideas about how to loosen these bleed nipples on the calipers?

One is beyond repair but I would like to loosen the other three without damaging them.

I have squirted WD40 and retired at sundown to a stiff rum....maybe a few more will follow.

Ta,

Neville.

[Alfisto Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donliznev Folks, Well, the MC arrived together with a kit for the SC so I was back at it again today having had the Alfa standing for two weeks awaiting parts. The SC kit is incorrect so that will have to go back to the supplier. Meanwhile I put back the old SC rubbers as they were not the original problem in any case, and we need to get the car back on the road for the Teen. In the interim whilst awaiting the parts I went further and removed the fluid reservoir which had about an eighth of an inch of black gunge in the bottom. I flushed out the pipes as well. I cannot understand how the fluid was actually getting through to the MC....maybe it wasn't and thats what caused the MC failure. The fluid sensor was also full of black crud. I should have taken pictures...... The clutch is now back in action and appears to work fine although the car has not yet been started as the coolant reservoir is not yet back in place. The saga continues with brake bleeding as the brakes and clutch share the same reservoir...........and this is wherein lies the proof that the two PO's have likely never changed the hydraulic fluid since 1991. The immediate PO claimed to be a certified Ferrari mechanic who also worked on these Alfa's, which was the main reason I purchased this particular Alfa. He claimed to have replaced the clutch, MC and SC amongst many other vital parts. The MC looked new and I could see signs of work in that area as the cover was gone, but the crud in the fluid must have caused early failure. The SC does not look new, although a kit may have been used. Hoo boy, I am going to have to start from scratch and revisit all the vital parts..... I cannot loosen the caliber bleed nipples and already one is now rounded so that the number eight wrench no longer grips. I hope these really do loosen anti-clockwise like any other normal bleed nipple....? Has anyone any ideas about how to loosen these bleed nipples on the calipers? One is beyond repair but I would like to loosen the other three without damaging them. I have squirted WD40 and retired at sundown to a stiff rum....maybe a few more will follow. Ta, Neville.

[donliznev]

Folks,

As always this forum elicits a mountain of valuable information, especially from Steve who should be earning money for what he provides....

Don't write off the WD40 Steve, the nipple came loose first try this morning with a vice grip gently squeezing the nipple and the eight wrench gently pressed against the last bit of hex it would grip.
However, that may have been luck so I bought some PB Blaster for the other three which also came loose with only a skinned knuckle.

As expected the insides of the nipples showed corrosion etc so in the near future I will service the calipers as well.
The front pads looked worn.
For now I just replaced the fluid.

Back to the clutch.......

The gears would not engage and after measuring the clutch lever displacement we (my incredibly patient Wife and I) applied another round of bleeding in case there was still air in the pipes.
All of a sudden the clutch pedal was swinging freely on it's pivot.
The piece which connects to the MC clevis has sheered from the main pedal lever.
There are several other cracks and signs of metal fatigue around the actual break.

The weekend came to a close without having the Alfa back on the road, and the search for a replacement clutch pedal begins.

I have scoured the parts dealers and private postings and posted an AD of my own looking for a 91 Alfa 164L clutch pedal.

Has anyone else managed to break the clutch pedal?
I thought these items were indestructable.

Any other ideas on where to find a pedal will be greatly appreciated.

Have a good week y'all......a short one for most of us.

Neville.

[Alfisto Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donliznev Folks, Back to the clutch....... The gears would not engage and after measuring the clutch lever displacement we (my incredibly patient Wife and I) applied another round of bleeding in case there was still air in the pipes. All of a sudden the clutch pedal was swinging freely on it's pivot. The piece which connects to the MC clevis has sheered from the main pedal lever. There are several other cracks and signs of metal fatigue around the actual break. The weekend came to a close without having the Alfa back on the road, and the search for a replacement clutch pedal begins. I have scoured the parts dealers and private postings and posted an AD of my own looking for a 91 Alfa 164L clutch pedal. Has anyone else managed to break the clutch pedal? I thought these items were indestructable. Any other ideas on where to find a pedal will be greatly appreciated. Have a good week y'all......a short one for most of us. Neville.

[BlackAlfa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donliznev I have scoured the parts dealers and private postings and posted an AD of my own looking for a 91 Alfa 164L clutch pedal. Has anyone else managed to break the clutch pedal? I thought these items were indestructable. Any other ideas on where to find a pedal will be greatly appreciated.

[donliznev]

As Bob suggested welding is definitely an option.

Initially I was gung ho on purchasing a welding kit to revisit my long lost amateur welding skills but common sense prevailed for once.
I am not sure what metal or alloy we are dealing with and more important this pedal appears to be badly distorted as well as sheered.
The double L piece that connects to the MC is twisted and not flat as shown in various diagrams.
How this came about beats me.....I never felt anything amiss.

Since I have had no luck as yet purchasing a pedal I will have to pursue the welding option this weekend once I have managed to flatten the twisted piece.

Any input is appreciated as always.

Neville.

[Alfisto Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donliznev As Bob suggested welding is definitely an option. Initially I was gung ho on purchasing a welding kit to revisit my long lost amateur welding skills but common sense prevailed for once. I am not sure what metal or alloy we are dealing with and more important this pedal appears to be badly distorted as well as sheered. The double L piece that connects to the MC is twisted and not flat as shown in various diagrams. How this came about beats me.....I never felt anything amiss. Since I have had no luck as yet purchasing a pedal I will have to pursue the welding option this weekend once I have managed to flatten the twisted piece. Any input is appreciated as always. Neville.

[donliznev]

Steve, these are questions I have gone over during the past week trying to figure out how that pedal got so distorted and subsequently sheered.

The PO (certified Ferrari mechanic) listed both clutch plates, Flex hose, MC and SC replaced amongst other items.
Either I must trust this information based on his seemingly good credentials or I must resign myself to the fact it was a pack of lies.
On purchase the car checked out fine and I have successfully purchased many used cars in the past.
I knew I was in for steering/suspension rebuild and the usual cosmetic body stuff.

Back to the clutch....

It was heavy but not unusually so to my mind.
I drove the car without (clutch) problem for about 5K over two years.
Keep in mind I have no point of reference as I am not able to ride in other similar model Alfa's to judge what is heavy or light.
However, our trusty Neon clutch is a feather in comparison.

The Alfa clutch was definitely not light enough to depress by hand.
I did not get any feeling that I was having problems depressing the clutch, never mind with enough force to break it.
It is not a flimsy piece of metal, and my left leg is embarrassingly skinny....

The spring assistance mechanism was in place but until I get things back to spec I am unable to comment on whether it worked properly or not.
It looks fine.....

I will revisit the hoses etc over the weekend and see whether I can get the pedal welded.

Ta,

Neville.

[BlackAlfa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donliznev As Bob suggested welding is definitely an option. Initially I was gung ho on purchasing a welding kit to revisit my long lost amateur welding skills but common sense prevailed for once. I am not sure what metal or alloy we are dealing with and more important this pedal appears to be badly distorted as well as sheered. The double L piece that connects to the MC is twisted and not flat as shown in various diagrams. How this came about beats me.....I never felt anything amiss. Since I have had no luck as yet purchasing a pedal I will have to pursue the welding option this weekend once I have managed to flatten the twisted piece. Any input is appreciated as always. Neville.

[Alfissimo Int.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donliznev As Bob suggested welding is definitely an option. Initially I was gung ho on purchasing a welding kit to revisit my long lost amateur welding skills but common sense prevailed for once. I am not sure what metal or alloy we are dealing with and more important this pedal appears to be badly distorted as well as sheered. The double L piece that connects to the MC is twisted and not flat as shown in various diagrams. How this came about beats me.....I never felt anything amiss. Since I have had no luck as yet purchasing a pedal I will have to pursue the welding option this weekend once I have managed to flatten the twisted piece. Any input is appreciated as always. Neville.

[donliznev]

Thanks Folks,

Yet again the great input from this forum has contributed directly to a happy and successful resolution.

This clutch is now working just fine.

Yesterday I managed to find an expert welder at a muffler shop (Rainbow Muffler) I have dealt with in the past.
The pedal was not only perfectly welded within five minutes but repainted black as well to look like new.
I was asked to contribute five bucks so I presented ten and said keep the change.
I also established during the past week that there is not one Alfa 164 in any breakers yard within 100 miles, or they were too lazy to look.

In retrospect I think the clutch pedal had been bent out of shape before the PO replaced MC, SC, Flex Pipe and clutch plates as claimed.
The distorted pedal was probably depressing the MC at an angle causing early failure.
The clutch/brake fluid was very dirty and looked too old to have been bled during the claimed clutch rebuild, probably adding to the premature MC collapse.
The final straw came when we bled the whole system (including brakes) and the pedal broke under stress.
At one stage I was wondering why the pedal was too low in relation to the brake pedal, and I forcibly pulled it back up.

Now fixed the clutch bites higher up in the pedal travel, and the lever travel is 19mm which is the maximum specified in CARDISC.
I cannot truly say the clutch is any lighter but I do know the spring assistance is working fine and the Flex pipe is good.
I can push it in by hand.

The brakes are working better as well since we bled the whole system and replaced all the fluid.
I nearly put my lovely Wife through the windscreen departing I295 but fortunately her belt was on.

As Steve would say it was a good Alfa Day here in FL.

Neville.