when it rains it pours! - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

 6Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
goats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: san diego CA
Posts: 3,818
when it rains it pours!

Got everything buttoned up, turned the crank over by hand a few times, recheck tensioner gap, etc. Start car and its blissfully quiet on the belt side of the motor. Unfortunately there is a horrific tapping from the driver side, sounds like #3 on the top end, and obvious miss. Pretty sure its not coil arc as it sounds way more metallic. I am always careful about stuff dropping into intakes/etc and as always as soon as I removed the runner I stuffed paper towel in the intakes there. Likewise when I removed spark plugs I looked first ; then blasted air to clear out any residue. Unfortunately it sounds like either a broken spring ; dropped valve, or something in the combustion chamber there that doesn't belong. Bummer

I'll give it a rest; remove plenum once again and try a borescope and/or compression test. Maybe this weekend,,,,

Between this; work; kids hockey; spider ; GTV; family I'm not sure when I'll get to it. Don't really relish pulling the rear head on this ....

sheesh! Patience is the one thing that I need continual help on!

goats

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
Mission Vsi, Mission Mod 2, - 20+ years of hockey on these!
radio flyer- rusty from disuse!
goats is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 04:43 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
horsewidower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wilton Ca
Posts: 1,285
I hear you.

I walked away from the LS a couple of weeks ago because I was about to reach for a gallon of gas and a match.

I'm ready to start beating my head against it, again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
brianthegood likes this.

STILL learning.

View my '74 GTV restoration at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


View my '91 164s adventure at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


But wait there's more: View my 164LS thread:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
horsewidower is offline  
post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 05:28 PM
Push hard and live
Gold Subscriber
 
DPeterson3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Carson City, NV
Posts: 6,860
Garage
What's the difference between a 164 and an Alfasud?

The 164 burns longer.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
 
post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 05:41 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
horsewidower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wilton Ca
Posts: 1,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
What's the difference between a 164 and an Alfasud?

The 164 burns longer.


LMAO

probably true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

STILL learning.

View my '74 GTV restoration at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


View my '91 164s adventure at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


But wait there's more: View my 164LS thread:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
horsewidower is offline  
post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 05:59 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: JAX FL
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
I'm ready to start beating my head against it, again.
Haven't we all been there so many times....

Worse experience was over Christmas when I thought my Honda Odyssey TBelt service would be a cakewalk.
Four days later, two lost bolts....have no idea where they went in there....pulled it apart again because the YouTube instructional video left out a few vital steps.
Other videos only dealt with tear down and assumed one would reassemble backwards which really does not work.
I now understand why Ody dealer TBelt service runs around $1400.00.....but glad I did it as I now know what goes on inside there.
It also cost me less than $300.00 for belts, water pump, coolant, pulleys etc.....

I appreciate so much the AlfaBB, CARDISC, EPER and the Digest and of course not least of all Alfisto, Alfissimo, Pinino, Roadtrip, Chazzy, Del, Goats and so many other experts on this Forum who make owning an Alfa a pleasure.

Ta,

Neville.
goats likes this.
donliznev is offline  
post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 10:55 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
goats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: san diego CA
Posts: 3,818
OK more tonight -- removed rear plenum again and did compression test (cold) on ALL cylinders. 200 +/- 10 on all, and importantly NO BAD NOISE when cranking with motronic relay pulled during compression test. took out all plugs and borescoped -- saw nothing unusual, ran my magnet down there with nothing coming back up. Put back together and fired up -- NO BAD NOISE but a clear misfire. After a while as the car got hotter, the tap-tap-tap returned. Still a misfire.

and a mystery. Might I have a bad plug? They are all brand new--- maybe a bad coil again? By the way I rang out the entire upper harness with no issues noted. And I am 99% sure the timing is spot on. I can check again I suppose........

At least, at this time, seems like no 'mechanical ' issue maybe but ???

goats

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
Mission Vsi, Mission Mod 2, - 20+ years of hockey on these!
radio flyer- rusty from disuse!
goats is offline  
post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 04:44 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfisto Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 24,449
You got a sticky lifter?
horsewidower likes this.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Maintenance Sticky:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Daily drivers: USA models - 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO;

Daughter's current ride: BB1 my 164L and Her Granddads 2002 Ford Taurus is back up.

New parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

Needing TLC non-blackbeast the 93 164L

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
Alfisto Steve is offline  
post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
goats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: san diego CA
Posts: 3,818
OK here's the skinny -- and I still cant believe it

As I said I checked compression, rechecked timing, etc and when I got everything back together its still got a horrible miss and very loud clicking. When I just did compression, no noise.

When I R/R tbelt, I put in new plugs PFR6B and a new set of coils in the back. I usually do this if I have coils in stock -- which I did; a new set of 6. I Always have plugs in stock, got em from Rock Auto on sale a few years ago.

Long story short -- one each bad plug and bad coil -- BOTH NEW! Plug has hairline crack in insulator that you can't see until it arcs over. Coil -- primary side was good, but high voltage side has intermittent OPEN which led to no spark, and when it did spark, it arced badly from the insulator-- THIS IS A BRAND NEW COIL I've had in stock for 5+ years. Note -- Coil and plug NOT MATED on back bank.

I knew the ignition modules were good and I did ring out the upper harness on the bench during the course of tbelt change. So the combination of bad plug (causing the miss) and bad coil (causing a miss as well as a huge arc which sounds atypical for an arcing coil , it is the source of the bad tapping sound) caused me to R/R rear plenum at least 5 times, maybe 6 but I FINALLY found them both and got it right. Motor is whisper quiet now at idle and steady as a rock, just went for a little Italian tuneup and I am back in business.

Total here -- new tbelt idler, new tbelt tensioner bearing, new serp belt idler, new tbelt, 6 new spark plug well gaskets, and I will say 12 hours of tbelt change time, and 12 hours troubleshooting this ignition mess.

Moral of the story-- just cause its new doesn't mean its good. I'm good to go belt wise another 30K miles.
horsewidower, Allan and CathalICCI like this.

goats

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
Mission Vsi, Mission Mod 2, - 20+ years of hockey on these!
radio flyer- rusty from disuse!
goats is offline  
post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 09:36 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 53
It looks like I may have a very similar problem on my 24V 164. I just completed a timing belt change. One of the valve lifters had developed some noise (the car had been off the road for various reasons for 3 months) on completion of the job. I thought I'd do some gentle revving to 3000 rpm on a warmed up engine to see if I could rectify it, after 5 cycles over several minutes I went to drive home and hey presto I'm only on 5 cylinders. The car then intermittently ran smooth and rough for the next 10 minutes. My first worry was that the new timing belt had slipped a tooth, but I know the tensioner and all pulleys were good and we spent a great deal of time getting the tension right. We also used cam locks so I know the alignment of the cams was perfect. I also figure given the car intermittently runs on 6 then 5 cylinders it's more likely to be a coil / plug / short problem.

My first question is this... is it safe to disconnect the injectors sequentially to narrow down the cylinder affected? I've read this is fine but my retired mechanic neighbour is worried it might damage the ECU.

It seems the problem is on the back row of three cylinders, ie under the plenum so it will have to come off again on Friday. We'll do a compression test at that time and then check the resistance on the coils and clean everything out, plus add a good coating of dielectric grease around the coils. I appreciate the coils may test normal even if there is a fault given it intermittently runs smooth. I'll make sure the connectors under the air box get another clean - I last did this a year ago.

Do any of you have any other questions? We always check for air leaks on reassembly and I know I have none. I'm pretty sure the AFM is okay also. The plugs are NGK iridiums and have done less than 5000 miles.

1993 164QV
DanNZ is offline  
post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 10:12 PM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 12,024
"I'll make sure the connectors under the air box get another clean"

use the grease there as well.

Del

Seattle

89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is offline  
post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 04:27 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
goats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: san diego CA
Posts: 3,818
Yes, you may have shorted/ intermittent coil. Here's what I did in more detail-- let the car run ( will run in even 4 cylinders but not well) and first, use long screwdriver up to your ear other end on injectors. Check em all for click click. Then take off front cover and one by one, remove connector to spark coil. Should hear motor beat miss. Verify fronts as good in this fashion. Then once you know fronts are good, remove rear plenum and access back. Swap both coils and plugs front to back ( i.e. 1 goes to 4, 2 to 5 etc). Swap as a matched pair coil and plug. You might take out upper harness and ring it out ( coil inputs only). You can do it in-situ as well, from big round connector to each coil plug. Make sure when u swap that all gunk is cleaned out of spark plug well. NO DIELECTRIC GREASE YET. So now the 'known good' fronts are in the rear and vice versa. Repeat the drill. You will find the bad actor. 90+ percent it's not a lifter making that noise.

Once you do this ( hopefully once but in my case was 5 times or so) u will find the bad actor. Make sure the upper harness ground ( acorn nut just fore of big round black connector) is tight with three washers.

Once the car is running well, and only then, if you are so inclined, apply tiny amounts of dielectric grease wherever you please. Tiny amounts.

Dielectric grease itself will not fix this problem and may well interfere with your troubleshooting. It's use as a prophylactic against moisture is widely documented. But until you find and fix the underlying issue do not apply prophylaxis measures!

I'm pretty much a stickler on this and have refused to work on cars before where this stuff was all over the place. Just makes the "finding and fixing" three times harder.
goats is offline  
post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 08:55 AM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 12,024
It's a lot cleaner to just line the coils with Mylar sheet as I did. I for one use that grease only on cleaned connections.

Del

Seattle

89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is offline  
post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 01:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 53
Thanks very much for your advice Goats, it is greatly appreciated.

Would sequentially unplugging the injectors serve the same purpose? I'm a little worried - I tried disconnecting each injector last night and the engine ran even rougher with each one disconnected. I figure if the problem is related to one cylinder and coil pack then disconnecting the injector to the problem cylinder should have resulted in no change on that particular disconnection. I'm paranoid now that maybe the cambelt did skip a tooth after all! I'm weighing up starting the engine again and listening with the screwdriver "stethoscope" vs just removing all the cam covers and checking cam alignment with the cam locks.

1993 164QV
DanNZ is offline  
post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
goats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: san diego CA
Posts: 3,818
Dan, if you did remove power to each injector and the car started to run rough (er)with each sequentially removed, yes you've effectively done the same. Key question is though, in your earlier note you said that car would run good/ then bad. Was the car misfiring when you started your checks? Coil packs can be quite intermittent depending on lots of things including ambient humidity.

I'd do as your gut says. Pull the timing covers off the front and verify your timing marks on the pulleys.

If you did loosen the cam-to-pulley interface to get things to line up ,and even if not, it's possible ( but not super likely) that the cam pulley taper has slipped -- worst case scenario so don't worry about this yet.

Search for my thread Dusty Rhodes Hard Times, read it thru, and come back after running thru it.

Cheers bob
goats is offline  
post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 02:46 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 53
Thanks for the additional sage advice.

I'd forgotten I had a brief period of smooth running after the problem started, so yes agree not the cambelt (thankfully).

We pulled the coil packs and plugs this morning and discovered the problem... At the same time as the timing belt change we did a coolant flush. I honestly don't think one had ever been done before, all sorts of crud came out. I removed both drainage plugs from the block (we made a cut down 22mm socket welded to a 1/4" extension to reach the rear one - several skinned knuckles later). Since this flush condensation had collected in all the back spark plug wells. The #1 plug had rust all over the contact with the coil pack. We cleaned everything out added (sparingly) dielectric grease and also added a local product called "Seal Well" to the new coolant. This was recommended by a local engine reconditioner. I should add we did a compression check and all was well.

The car now runs well. We'll see how things go over the next week.

Does anyone have experience of condensation in the spark plug wells on the 24v 164?

1993 164QV
DanNZ is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome