Ignition Module Failure in 164 24V - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Ignition Module Failure in 164 24V

Greetings. Have any 24V owners experienced ignition module failure (not just dirty and needing Del's recommended dialectric cleanup)? If so, what were the manifested engine behavior symptoms?

1995 164 LS 5 speed 78K
owned since new
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 01:47 PM
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What is/are your 164 24v symptom(s)?

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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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Went for spirited smooth-sailing 50-mile drive. Back home put in place driver's side black plastic conveyor (the one factory supposedly remove to promote cooling of ignition modules). Went for a local drive. After short stopover, ignition restarted smoothly, but drive power seemed strangely lacking, engine rode rough, and noted choppy sound from exhaust back home. Engine vibrations at idle. Smelly rich exhaust, but not "rotten egg" smell. TB changed 10K miles and 3.5 years ago. Aluminum radiator only new recent part. Familiar with slipped-a-tooth engine vibrations. This seems different.

1995 164 LS 5 speed 78K
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 04:17 PM
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usually it fails one cylinder. There are 3 amplifiers per pack. Try to find which cylinder is not firing -- use an IR temp gun on the exhaust mani to see which one is colder. Im afraid that sometimes your symptoms could be a coil as well. There is also the slipped belt scenario.......Any engine code? Id expect a 1223 if its that rich,.,,,

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74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
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usually it fails one cylinder. There are 3 amplifiers per pack. Try to find which cylinder is not firing -- use an IR temp gun on the exhaust mani to see which one is colder. Im afraid that sometimes your symptoms could be a coil as well. There is also the slipped belt scenario.......Any engine code? Id expect a 1223 if its that rich,.,,,
I'm guessing that answers one of my questions as to whether the twinspark packs could be used instead. They look physically identical but shame the internals probably aren't.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 10:58 AM
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The connectors are correctly? If the connectors are interchanged engine will run poorly.

Alfetta 2.0 ,76 Ex / Alfa 75 2.0 TS,91 Ex
Alfa 164 3.0 24V Super,95 / Alfa MITO 1.4 ,09
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
the twinspark packs could be used instead.
No.

Alfetta 2.0 ,76 Ex / Alfa 75 2.0 TS,91 Ex
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 11:01 AM
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for 24V you can switch the connectors no problem; they are just passive amplifiers

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74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
Mission Vsi, Mission Mod 2, - 20+ years of hockey on these!
radio flyer- rusty from disuse!
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-10-2016, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
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for 24V you can switch the connectors no problem; they are just passive amplifiers
Yes, I understand that, but if I have them to swap, the engine runs very bad.

Alfetta 2.0 ,76 Ex / Alfa 75 2.0 TS,91 Ex
Alfa 164 3.0 24V Super,95 / Alfa MITO 1.4 ,09
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-10-2016, 07:47 AM
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Evgeny I cant offer an explanation for that! On my 24V cars I can switch the connectors and the engine runs just fine. It is not important on USA car which amplifier is plugged into which connector. I wonder if your car has a wiring difference we don't have over here?

goats

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
Mission Vsi, Mission Mod 2, - 20+ years of hockey on these!
radio flyer- rusty from disuse!
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-10-2016, 08:17 AM Thread Starter
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Thank's Goats. I switched the light grey connector to the ignition module in the forward position and the dark grey connector to the module in the rear position.
Uncertain if this means a connector was not secure, but after the switch the rough idle and vibrations settled down, and the rich exhaust smell diminished. Exhaust manifold temps with IR gun seem to indicate all cylinders throwing heat, though rear bank (1-2-3) appears to be hotter. (Due to angle of curvaceous manifold pipes, readings seem to vary with laser-spotter placement.) No codes before, and no codes now. After a thirty minute in-town test drive, motor seems to have good power on acceleration, but during hot idle at stop lights there is spotty roughness. Spark plugs were changed for first time about 12k ago, but original coils have never been replaced. I'll switch back the connectors and see what happens. Goats, you mentioned that when one of the two ignition modules fails it usually shows in one of three cylinders of that assigned bank. Will that cylinder show no heat or simply less heat than the other two cylinders in the bank?

1995 164 LS 5 speed 78K
owned since new
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-10-2016, 09:16 AM
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It depends on the failure mode. If the amplifier is weak, it could be that the spark itself is weak as well. I;ve not seen that myself, the only failures I;ve seen were frank failures of the amplifier whereas the coil did not get any current and thus that cylinder had no spark at all, and thus no burn. Try switching back to the original position. do you hear any 'snap snap' like a coil arcing to ground? Take off the front cover at night and run the motor and see if there are any blue sparks from the coil to ground. I suspect a coil problem from your description but that's without any diagnostics; these coils do eventually break down from the heat and start shorting.

goats

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
Mission Vsi, Mission Mod 2, - 20+ years of hockey on these!
radio flyer- rusty from disuse!
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-17-2016, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Switched ignition modules connectors back to original position. Runs smooth with power except for previously described intermittent roughness after warm-up at idle. With front cover off and engine running in dark, after warm-up there are sparks (white, not blue) visible under center coil in front bank.Coils are OEM Bosch with 0221504456 stamped on top. I'm thinking that after 22 years, maybe the six coils should be replaced.

1995 164 LS 5 speed 78K
owned since new

Last edited by cargomaz; 10-18-2016 at 05:48 AM.
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-17-2016, 06:55 PM
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Buy three new ones and put them in the rear. Then u can easily mix n match the front ones. You can try the dielectric sheeting trick or silicone sealant, but I'd just replace the back three
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-18-2016, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
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Buy three new ones and put them in the rear. Then u can easily mix n match the front ones. You can try the dielectric sheeting trick or silicone sealant, but I'd just replace the back three

When I'm tired of "playing checkers" with the old ignition coils. I have done so.




Then, all the old checked out at the front.

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Alfa 164 3.0 24V Super,95 / Alfa MITO 1.4 ,09
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