Ignition Module Failure in 164 24V - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-19-2016, 07:45 AM Thread Starter
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Rather than risk breaking a brittle connector, I'll ask a dumb question:

What is the correct way to remove the connector to the coil pack?

Downward pressure on the wire or lift up on it with flathead screwdriver.

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1995 164 LS 5 speed 78K
owned since new
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-19-2016, 08:09 AM
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I;ve never had good luck pushing down and pulling off. I completely remove that wire from the connector before I take the plug off, push the wire down and use a small pointed scribe on the side; lever the side out, get one side loose, then it comes off. Make sure you don't lose it. Once you get the hang of it they come off in 10 seconds.

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74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-19-2016, 09:33 AM
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Personally, I push down on the clip wire with a finger and then pull the connector by the connector body - never the electric wires.
Good luck :-)
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 12:40 PM
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Hi cargomaz,

I also have a 95 LS and am slowly replacing coils as they fail (the original ones) and am in the middle of a conversion to a much cheaper set of coils. They are a Hitachi unit used by VW and Volvo I believe and are significantly cheaper and would bypass the amplifier modules. I just received the parts and have confirmed the signal that the Motronic ECO on our 164 uses to fire the current Amplifier modules. I now need to verify that the same signal will fire these coils and then go ahead and bolt one in and see what happens. This mod would require some harness soldering but would take the amplifiers out of the equation and reduce maintenance costs significantly. c.S.
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 12:45 PM
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I haven't put the oscope on the ECU output to verify the trigger pulse, but it might be (maybe) disclosed in the service manual. Csduetto, what data do you have re: the trigger pulse? I presume it is simply frequency modulated on a defined pulse width and amplitude but that's just a guess on my part

goats

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
Mission Vsi, Mission Mod 2, - 20+ years of hockey on these!
radio flyer- rusty from disuse!
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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 03:09 PM
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Hi Goats - it is a 5msec square wave pulse of 3VDC based on RPM - now I need to confirm that this same trigger will work with the coils I have purchased and see how well they bolt on to the engine. Will keep you in the loop. c.S.
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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 04:18 PM
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Keep us informed on that swap. Those are excellent coils. I always prefer "smart" coils if they fit.


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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 05:50 PM
Del
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"I also have a 95 LS and am slowly replacing coils as they fail (the original ones) and am in the middle of a conversion to a much cheaper set of coils"

I've been lucky so far, as I've had no failures (or whatever) to date with 110k miles on the LS. My feeling is that the housing of the original coils cracks after a while, perhaps due to heat, dirt and pollution gets into the cracks, and this provides a path for the unit to short out to the nearest part of the head.

I will sure keep an eye on this, as some day I might have to change at least one. Hope this works.

Del

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89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 06:40 AM
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So was able to run the bench test today using a Square wave to simulate the ECU pulse and Current Monitoring on the Power Supply. The wiring on the bench was as follows (note that pins in the Hitachi Module PN CM11-201 also known as VW 06B905115E) Pin 1 - PWR, Pin 2 &4 - GND, Pin 3 - Trigger. This resulted in a nice fat spark. I played around with the Input Trigger and the current consumption went from 1.3A to about 3A. Next I measured how much of a load the trigger input (Pin 3) presents to the Function Generator to understand if the ECU output on the Alfa is going to have issues in driving it. With the unit firing at 100Hz stimulus I got about 2.55mA on a meter and a 0.5V drop in my signal. So very small load. I am suspicious now that the initial 3Vp-p reading in the car would be higher if I could monitor that signal without the load of the amp modules on it. As it turns out the ECU only has 3 wires which are split to each amp modules so there are two parallel loads on each of those Trigger lines from the ECU. So one would have to be running on 4 cyl for a short time to measure this signal unloaded. I will likely try one of these coils in the car later today and see what I get. Stay tuned. cS
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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 08:49 AM
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the output from ECU is likely a tri-state device so I doubt (but its worth checking) that removal of the other two wires will result in a meaningful difference. Does your VW coil have discreet amplifier circuit in it? Seems like it would since its getting power (12v? to pin 1). What is the current draw of pin 1?

THe trigger pulse from ECU just gives the darlington amplifier enough forward bias - I presume its .7 v and a couple mA to set it going.

Do you have a spec sheet on the new coil?

goats

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump --speedo been around at least twice -- [B]needs new oil rings[/B]!
1995 LS Q runners Auto Green/tan [B]230K[/B] 100% LCD paint absolutely SHOT!
1995 LS 5 speed Green /tan 48K Q runners squadra chip 100 % LCD -- nice tight car
Misc parts laying around for 24V and 2Liter- always need more it seems
2004 Tacoma 4 door TRD (wifes car/kid hauler)- 172K
Mission Vsi, Mission Mod 2, - 20+ years of hockey on these!
radio flyer- rusty from disuse!
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post #26 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 09:35 AM
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Hi Goats - the current consumption at Pin 1 depending on the 'ON' time of the square wave and FREQ varied from 1.3 to 3A. I wish I had a spec sheet on the Coil from Hitachi but do not - would be grateful to anyone who could locate it. The reason I am suspicious of the 3V measured ECU signal is that the advertised output of the ECU signal is 5V but when the car is idling and this O/P is feeding two of the darlington base inputs I am guessing these loads are dropping the voltage to 3Vp-p. My hope is that based on what I have measured on the bench that the load of these newer coils would be lower which would mean a better rising edge on the trigger pulse and a more precise spark on the other end - theoretically c.S.
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