power steering question

[alfahill]

Steve,
Thanks for the advice. I was a bit concerned about the cam timing going into the timing belt change, but since the cam teeth were marked and the previous belt change was at a reputable dealer (along with a retension after 5K miles), I decided to skip the extra work. The tensioner gap had increased to 1/4" instead of 1/8" over the past 57K miles, but taking belt stretch into account, I was able to line up the marks, and the engine idles very smoothly after the belt change. I don't think I am off by a tooth on the belt, and I don't think it is likely that the cams could move with respect to the pulleys (even without the keys). I am sure I will have the cam covers off at some point and I will check the cam marks with respect to the TDC. Do you think a visual is good enough or are the special tools really necessary? I can certainly check the TDC with a dial, but isn't the crank pulley mark good enough?

[Alfisto Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfahill Steve, Thanks for the advice. I was a bit concerned about the cam timing going into the timing belt change, but since the cam teeth were marked and the previous belt change was at a reputable dealer (along with a retension after 5K miles), I decided to skip the extra work. The tensioner gap had increased to 1/4" instead of 1/8" over the past 57K miles, but taking belt stretch into account, I was able to line up the marks, and the engine idles very smoothly after the belt change. I don't think I am off by a tooth on the belt, and I don't think it is likely that the cams could move with respect to the pulleys (even without the keys). I am sure I will have the cam covers off at some point and I will check the cam marks with respect to the TDC. Do you think a visual is good enough or are the special tools really necessary? I can certainly check the TDC with a dial, but isn't the crank pulley mark good enough?

[multicam]

Group

Well, here the follow up.

The leak is coming from the hose from the rack to the cooling coil> thanks Steve et al..
The black woven hose is very soft and soaked with PS fluid. Ther is a common hose clamp on the end of the hose as it attaches to the cooling coil and it looks suspect.

The steering rack boots area both dry and ripped. The mechanic recommends that the rack be replaced and all the hoses changed. The pump is OK.

Why the rack I ask? The mechanic stated he saw, P/S fluid "peeing out from inside the boot" when fluid was added to the reservoir and pump running.

Should I replace the steering rack? If just the hose blew? His argument for rack replacement is that the inc pressure with new hoses, would worsen the steering rack leak and since the boots are ripped, d there is dirt in the mechanism and will eventually ruin the rack.

I ordered the high pressure hose [pump to rack], from Di Fatta Brothers, they list the other hoses as' " locally supplied".

So, my question is, simple. If the boots are ripped and their is PS fluid found inside the boot [per mechanic], does that automatically call for replacement of the steering rack?

Thanks for all your help, this group has been invaluable.

Frank La Sala
W. Hartford, CT

[Alfisto Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by multicam Group Well, here the follow up. The leak is coming from the hose from the rack to the cooling coil> thanks Steve et al.. The black woven hose is very soft and soaked with PS fluid. Ther is a common hose clamp on the end of the hose as it attaches to the cooling coil and it looks suspect. The steering rack boots area both dry and ripped. The mechanic recommends that the rack be replaced and all the hoses changed. The pump is OK. Why the rack I ask? The mechanic stated he saw, P/S fluid "peeing out from inside the boot" when fluid was added to the reservoir and pump running. Should I replace the steering rack? If just the hose blew? His argument for rack replacement is that the inc pressure with new hoses, would worsen the steering rack leak and since the boots are ripped, d there is dirt in the mechanism and will eventually ruin the rack. I ordered the high pressure hose [pump to rack], from Di Fatta Brothers, they list the other hoses as' " locally supplied". So, my question is, simple. If the boots are ripped and their is PS fluid found inside the boot [per mechanic], does that automatically call for replacement of the steering rack? Thanks for all your help, this group has been invaluable. Frank La Sala W. Hartford, CT

[BlackAlfa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by multicam Why the rack I ask? The mechanic stated he saw, P/S fluid "peeing out from inside the boot" when fluid was added to the reservoir and pump running.

[Alfisto Steve]

Here is some light reading for you from my caper with my 93L same rack type as 24v.

Rosso Rescue Project Steering Rack Update

I also thought I had a rack leaking but turned out wasn't so I just replaced bad inner tie rod end and bad mounting bushing. Even my hoses were fine.

[MrT]

On the issue of power steering hose replacement and whether to do the rack replacement at the same time because of some fluid found in the boots...

The rack costs a certain amount (~$400?) and the hoses cost a certain amount (~$75?). The "get into it and back out" labor costs much more than the hoses, probably less than the rack. The rack has a certain lifetime remaining, but it is unknown. My decision would be driven by
1) how much can be saved on labor from doing both hose and rack replacement together
2) can the budget stand an outflow of $ for a rack and the incremental labor for its replacement as a pre-emptive measure
3) how likely does it appear that the rack will fail before the car somehow dies (totaled out by rear-ending, meteor strike, or other incident).

Steve's recent post on dropping the subframe to get at the rack for replacement is relevant here for cutting down the time involved. The hoses don't have to be removed when the rack is replaced, I think. To the extent that the hose replacement and rack replacement are different and non overlapping jobs, I'd think there is no question that I'd delay the rack replacemement. Plus, I do most of my own maintenance work on the Alfas, so in my case the labor availability is more an issue than labor cost.

Michael

[multicam]

Well , I have the car back. It sat for 5 days outside the mechanic shop and they still could not give me an estimate on labor costs, [I was sourcing the rack rebuild and hoses for them]
Plus I wasn't sure that the rack needed replacement. What the mechanic said and what I saw, did not jive.

So, I am going to try to replace the return hose [ rack to cooling coil ], my best bet as to where the leak is. I am also prepared to change the high pressure hose [pump to steering rack].

If the power steering reservoir stays full than it's tutto bene, and mille grazie.

? on clamp type. I'm thinking of a radiator type clamp that has a rubber jacket around the metal band. Any other suggestions?


Thanks for the invaluable assistance.


Frank L
'94 164 LS Bianca Artica
'59 Giulietta Sprint
'60 Giulietta Spider

[multicam]

hey group

Well, I decided to tackle the power steering leak myself. Thanks guys, this BB is pretty special.

I made room in the garage, had to get "Tire Skates", on the Giulietta and wrangle it into the corner. Then dry off the LS and jack her up, using a 4x6 under the front frame and jacks under the lift points [scary thoughts of bending rusty metal]. Thanks for all the previous threads, the "lift", was a success.

Took the front drivers side fender guard off and the rear one is loose but not off, does this really come off?? Love that manual, it's like a outline to "War and Peace"
Anyway, here is what I found: the lower A arm is soaked with a soggy mess of gravel, dirt and P/S fluid. Passenger side is dry and the boot intact.

The drivers side steering rack boot is completely open at the tie rod end and there P/S fluid inside.

No obvious leaks from the hoses and coil, but a soaked boggy black clothed hose from the rack to the coil. I think its soaked due to being below the leak.

So I filled the reservoir with fluid and started the engine. http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif Pink foamy fluid came out of the end of the high pressure hose were the outer jacket ends [ just like a previous post ]. Wow, the fluid looked like a strawberry shake!!
While that was happening I looked inside the boot, nothing shaking inside, but I realize the rack is not fully pressurized.

Question: Could I have two leaks one high flow, from the high pressure hose which would explain the sudden loss of fluid and a slow leak from the drivers side steering rack seal?
Or, could the fluid just get into the boot from a high pressure leak which is just above the boot?
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/imag...s/confused.gif

Frank





here's a follow up on my power steering leak.
I went to a "reputable" mechanic but, I did not trust him. He wanted to replace the rack and all hoses, did not want to give me a estimate on the # hrs or cost
Trailered the 164 LS home and today got it open up.[had to move make room in the garage].
Well, the drivers side lower A arm is soggy with gravel dirt and P/S fluid. The end of the P/S rack boot is completely seperated at the first rib and their is P/S fluid inside. The hose from rack to coil is wet and spongy. The coil itself is OK. it is the return hose from the pump to the rack. I put some fluid in the reservoir and fluid [pink and foaming] coming out of the end of the high pressure hose, viewed from the drivers side wheel well.
Question. My drivers side rack boot is fully seperated at the [wheel] end and there is power steering fluid inside the boot. when I started the engine I did not see any fluid from inside the boot. BUT, the rack was prob not fully pressurized due to the leak and I did not turn the steering wheel.
So, my question is if there is P/S fluid in the boot could it get there from spray from the high pressure hose, since it is just above this area. Or, do I have two leaks? One fast and one slow?
Question 2> does the rear inner fender guard come compleatly off?

[Alfisto Steve]

Leak can be just from leaking hose or from both hose and rack but my money on major leak is from hose foaming.

Pressure hose from pump to rack is 60595418.

Also, you can buy a new boot kit for rack and just use boot you need. IAP sells it as 04511, Alfa number 9943835.

Rear inner liner will come out and makes access to rack to change boot and hose a bit easier. You may need right side one out too to get hose off pump.

You can either really fight the rear liners off the brake line area of body and rocker panel under door or if you remove strut/spring assemblies first it is a bit easier.

[multicam]

Thanks Steve,

I will go ahead and replace the delivery hose, got one from Di Fatta Brothers. Boots are out of stock at IAP.

More Questions:

If I remove strut and spring as a unit, do I have to support the hub weight, with a small jack? No, limit cables, alla Giuliettas. Does the unit have to be compressed? the strut boots are ripped, are they hard to replace? Or, can, I let them go for now?

About that Rt. rear inner liner. I don't have to detach the brake hose to get the rear liner out completely? The inner hole in the liner is still intact, [the passenger side shows evidence of being cut open]. Or , is the liner just rotated away to expose the P/S rack and hoses?

Frank
W. Hartford, CT
'94 LS
'59 Sprint
'60 Spider

[MrT]

My familiarity is with the 12V units, but I suspect the 24V are (nearly) the same. You'll probably be awash with opinions soon, and better informed than mine, but I'll try anyway.

The rear gravel shield (12V) is held on by two screws under the side skirt and by one screw below the brake line connections (in addition to the one at the top of the wheel well which holds both front and rear shielf halves). There MAY be screws at the wheel well periphery, but I suspect not. I believe that Steve is correct about removing the strut before the rear gravel shield. The 12V units (again) have three studs at the strut mount and four bolts at the wheel hub. There is no real need for special support, unless your ball joint is failing, but then you might have other concerns. A support wire would not do damage unless you hook it through your flesh while trying to remove the gravel shield or other parts.

The rear gravel shield can be a royal pain to remove, but it is easier to slip out from behind the brake junctions if it is rotated about 45 degrees. I can't remember whether to front or rear; I just remember it was thoroughly counter-intuitive but worked great. IF your car has not had its rear shield removed, it may be locked in place from assembly as you feared. But there is a flex line (IIRC) molded into the item and a cut along this frees it up for removal without disconnecting the brake hydraulics.
Sort of a pain, really, but not disastrous. See if anyone can provide you pictures.

No boots at DiFatta?

Michael

[Alfisto Steve]

Call difatta they show 6 kits 9943835 in stock but you never know if database on pdf file is correct.

[multicam]

? on the gravel shield:
Do I have a different RH rear gravel shield?
I checked the 94 and supplemental 95 MY Manuals and even the Tech Bulletins and I don't see the one that I have on my 94 LS?
the shield does have a notch where the brake lines and ABS lines are cut around, instead the plastic liner surrounds them!
Did Guido's parts bin, run out of the regular ones, or am I ignorant.
Sorry about the orientation of the photo.

jpg attached

Frank
94 LS
59 Sprint
60 Spider