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10-08-2007, 01:06 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hamilton, NZ
Posts: 324
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisto Steve
ML let me stay over here tonight after repair session so I better end this computer madness before pumpkin time and get a shower. I can sleep in tomorrow morning so might hold on a little longer.
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My '91 164 has this same rack but a mirror image; large weird-shaped boot is on left side, presumably the same weak mounting in there too. I noticed when I jacked up the front end for tie-rod replacement last week, the strange effect of it being difficult to swivel the wheels; had to use steering lock to hold the wheels swivelled (due to that centering spring).
I don't think I've ever known a car with spring-centered steering, except for a 1934 Singer Le Mans (http://www.singercars.com/profiles/9lemans.html) that my Dad used to remember fondly from the early 50's (I suspect this was much more cool in his day than my cars are today).
Meanwhile I think the Citroen SM had a powered-centering system. I wouldn't have expected an Italian car like the 164 to have such a corruption as a spring in the steering. My previous ('92) 164 did not have this and the rack was a normal shape (without damper).
Therefore, I have the question: has my '91 164 been fitted with a later rack having a damper, or is the one with the damper the earlier design?
Or. did my (newer) 164 have perhaps an earlier rack fitted, which (if for a manual) would explain the problem that plagued me the whole time I had that car, of the tyres rubbing on the auto transmission. Someone had welded metal tabs to the control arms, to restrict the swivelling of the strut brackets!
Not that it matters much now, until I have to replace those bushings. In the meantime I'll keep it de-greased in that area.
-Alex
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'91 164 3L V6 Manual, green, '01 Punto Sporting CVT, yellow, '88 Uno Turbo, white
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10-08-2007, 03:30 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Poquoson, VA
Posts: 2,694
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The steering racks for the auto transmission are reported to have limited travel (in at least one direction, but not both) for just the reason you mention. I haven't verified that, but it is true that the turning radius is bigger for the auto transmission cars (in at least one direction)... Sorry that I don't remember which direction. It may be mentioned in the CarDisc or other manual.
Michael
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10-08-2007, 05:42 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 7,170
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Sounds like somebody put in a manual rack which has equal turning radius both ways whereas the A/T rack limits R/H hand turn radius because tranny sticks out into wheel well and has a special front fender liner on that side.
Racks with centering springs came originally on S models and then on L models starting in 91. I parted out a 91L w/AT manufactured in 11-90 and it had one with damper/oval boot and limited turning to right. I have 4 early model 91 164 (B/Ls) with no damper.
My 93L, my son's 92L w/5-speed both have oval boot racks with equal turning as does his 91S.
Tricky process to get correct rack for 164 because of teeth on rack shaft being hidden under round boot driver's side and there are less on one end for AT models.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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10-08-2007, 01:25 PM
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75/Milano manuals for all
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 1,519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisto Steve
Sounds like somebody put in a manual rack which has equal turning radius both ways whereas the A/T rack limits R/H hand turn radius because tranny sticks out into wheel well and has a special front fender liner on that side.
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Mine must have come from the factory with a manual rack.
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10-08-2007, 06:52 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 7,170
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Will post pictures as I progress, but looks like I will be resealing rack as right oval boot filled with fluid and right inner tie rod end has major play in socket. Lucky me I have new seal kit and new correct R/H inner TRE for rack with damper in my parts stash.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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10-10-2007, 07:45 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 7,170
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RRR aka Rosso Rack Repair
Some rack progress pictures:
__________________
Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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10-10-2007, 07:49 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 7,170
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More disassembly shots:
__________________
Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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10-10-2007, 08:10 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New York
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After seeing this, I'm thankful I've got an early car with a non-dampened rack. But is access any easier with the non-dampened rack, or would you still recommend dropping the sub-frame?
On an only somewhat related note, several years ago when I had some body work done and the sub-frame replaced, the steering wheel was allowed to rotate 90 degrees when they had it apart. Naturally, they re-assembled it exactly that way, and to this day my steering wheel is 90 degrees off. Since you're in there Steve, any thoughts on whether I might be able to open up a pinch bolt and rotate the steering wheel back where it belongs without un-bolting anything else?
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Brad
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10-11-2007, 03:15 AM
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Location: VB, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPDISXR4Ti
After seeing this, I'm thankful I've got an early car with a non-dampened rack. But is access any easier with the non-dampened rack, or would you still recommend dropping the sub-frame?
On an only somewhat related note, several years ago when I had some body work done and the sub-frame replaced, the steering wheel was allowed to rotate 90 degrees when they had it apart. Naturally, they re-assembled it exactly that way, and to this day my steering wheel is 90 degrees off. Since you're in there Steve, any thoughts on whether I might be able to open up a pinch bolt and rotate the steering wheel back where it belongs without un-bolting anything else?
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__________________
Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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10-11-2007, 05:46 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,491
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I did my rack about 3 years ago and when re-assembling, I got the wheel off by a couple of splines. Bothersome, but I could live with it. Later, the ignition lock failed. Since the steering wheel had to come off anyway to replace the lock, when the wheel went back on, I moved it one spline and it is now straight.
This translates to a few less degrees rotation from the center position to one side as compared to the other, but it is not noticable.
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John G. Harrill
1957 Giulietta Spider
1988 Quadrifoglio
1978 Spider
2002 VW Passat Wagon
Running Again and Code Free:
1994 164LS
Those that have passed on:
1966 Guilia Sprint GT
1964 Guilia Spider
1959 Giulietta Spider
1991 Mazda Protege LX
1988 Mazda 323
1969 Chevy Nova (350)
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10-11-2007, 07:09 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john.harrill
Since the steering wheel had to come off anyway to replace the lock, when the wheel went back on, I moved it one spline and it is now straight.
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I need to get my head in there and look around, reminding myself why I like working on RWD cars so much more. 
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Brad
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10-11-2007, 06:00 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Armidale, NSW
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I'm not sure the rear wheel drive cars are any easier - newer cars seem easier to me now simply because they are relatively clean and usually have less bodging. This 164 I have now has been relatively untouched like that, and it's so much easier to work on than cars covered in stripped bolts, 40 years of oil leaks and wiring held together with electrical tape it isn't funny.
I think the most difficult job I did on an Alfa was replacing the rear disks on an Alfetta GTV. Not only because access is a bear, but because those bolts are so tight they take monstrous amounts of force to remove.
Access to the steering gubbins on a 164 isn't that much harder than an Alfetta, once you know what you are looking for. In fact, I think pulling the rack on a 164 is about the same as a power steered Alfetta based car.
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10-11-2007, 07:02 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
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More rack repair info and pix
Well, rack repair without replacing seals is done and Rosso test driven. I tested rack with engine and power steering pump by hooking it up to a spare reservoir outside of the car and started engine while it was resting on jack.
No leaks, so I replaced bad passenger side inner tie rod end, replace bad mounting rubber bushings and put it back into car. Will have to get alignment check to verify 0 toe and set steering wheel to center as still off to left about same as before I replaced bad parts. Very responsive steering now.
__________________
Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 10-11-2007 at 07:13 PM.
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10-11-2007, 07:16 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 7,170
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Another verse:
__________________
Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B ALFA 4US w/AT, 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - semi-daily driver with issues.
164L Rescue projects: 91 Argento aka Non-QS, and organ donor 91 Nero 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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10-11-2007, 07:19 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 7,170
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Want to see some more?
Note Three inner tie rod ends. top one used on driver's side and both sides on rack without centering spring but can be used on passenger side of centering spring oval boot racks. Correct one for those racks is lower ones with flat face next to threads (this one hard to find). I got my spare off eBay from Canadian seller.
Also there are different brackets for passenger side as shown by two in picture either one will work.
I used blue "loctite" and stacked inner tie rod end. too.
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