Alfa 164 Automatic Transmission Repair 16-01

[Alfisto Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by beatle_bayly Steve, Any idea if the 164 CarDisc is an adequate substitute for the hardcopy Alfa manual ? Is the 9000 manual more detailed than the Alfa manual for the auto tranny ? Thanks.

[Alfisto Steve]

I have found order number for ZF shop manual and I hope to contact them at their IL location and see if I can get a copy but in the meantime I thought I woiuld bump this thread up again.

I found out ZF manual available new for cost of $390 plus shipping so may hold off on getting that one as Nat Wentworth told me again this week that Saab manual much better especially for working on valve body aka distribution box.

[twoliterlover]

Not all 164 auto trannys models are identical. The 1964 and later, the LS Automatic tranny with its EIS (ice) option (Q is only 5 speed?), is far more advanced that the one for B or L (again, perhaps only I have turned my 164 auto into car that looks like an S). But both a ZF transmissions made in Switzerland. While I am sure there are some of you who enjoy fooliing with auto transmissions, I pale at the prospect. BESIDES, I have had the privilege since 1984 of representing and trading services with a full service transmission rebuilding factory in Auburn, Washington, that has done the factory warranty repair exchange for BMW, SAAB, etc. (including the infrequent Alfa Romeo) on the west coast for many years. They receive a container collected from all over the far east from Taiwan every month or so to rebuild. They have always kindly redone my friends transmissions, but I've never asked them to do any Alfa transmissions except for me. Still, if someone wants to buy a rebuilt transmission for Alfa Romeo 164 (early or LS) I believe I can get you a deal. They did a wonderful job on my Montreal (also a ZF, but not an automatic) as well as the automatic for my 1991 164B (now an S). As a special gift to me they even took that sideways monster out and put the rebuild back in. I think it runs better than the original, but I only got the car after it was totalled, so I can't honestly say that. I had managed to drive it two years before it went bad, and it only failed then because it split a hose and I ran it out of flud. I am not sure they would think I was doing them a favor in getting them more Alfa automatics to repair, because they let me know mine was not enjoyable. But they are just ZF ransmissions with different mounting arrangements, and they have full testing and checking equipment to be sure their work comes up to ZF's highest factory warranty quality standards. Can't continue such work year after year if not up to snuff. So, call me if you would like to have a rebuild exchange at some decent price. I checked, and they tell me they have one early model sitting half finished right now, missing a kick down. They will take that off the core that gets sent in if it is still good. Otherwise they warned me I will have to find them one for causing them such trouble, and they will start teasing me about my FIATS. Jay

[dotsix]

My 91 164L automatic's 4th gear (D) is out. Can anyone tell me what might be the most obvious cause? Would appreciate hearing from someone with the same problem and what cause was found to be.

[beatle_bayly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by enzomarciano Steve, I have changed both springs as you suggested and the tranny works very well. Thankyou very much. I will change the governor seals when your other article on governor seals will be available as you promised.Thank you again.

[jacsil]

I have a 1991 164 with 85,000 miles. about 1 month ago when my daughter was driving she started seeing smoke comming from under the hood. she emidietly pulled over. she thought it needed water but it didnt. she started back up but it wouldnt go anywhere.

I found that one of the transmission feed lines had sprung a leak. I had the line repaired and put it back on. Put some transmission fluid in started it up and everything was fine.

Last week when she would start the car it would take a moment befor locking into any forward gear when shifting from park etc. once it got into gear it shifted fine.

tonight she was driving my younger son to basketball and she said it took a little longer to get into gear but then was fine. However when she started going up a hill it wouldnt go forward. I tried to get it to go forward but it wouldnt go anywhere the engine would rev but nothing. it almost felt as if the parking brake was on. It shifts into reverse and works fine. If I rev it it slowly starts to move. any thoughts. I just had the heads rebuilt and put new hoses on did all the work with my brother in law except the machining. the car runs and looks great. also im not sure but the transmission might be overfull.


help needed.

[MrT]

The "won't go forward" symptom is what my '91L was doing. The eldest daughter was driving it mostly and had reported the transmission was slipping in forward gears. When I got into the car (cool engine/transm.) I felt nothing out of the ordinary. Naturally. Then she got stranded 30 miles from home when she didn't have a real reason to have gone there. The car was OK for a few miles at a time, but rapidly reached a state where it wouldn't go more than 5-6 miles without starting to slip into undriveability. I swapped in another running auto transm., and it's OK for now. I plan to rebuild the other with parts from Eriksson Industries. But another option is to swap in the pedal box and associated hardware from a 5-speed S parts car. It's just a question of which project gets started when. My wife would prefer to have an A/T car, it turns out, but she's happy with her '92S right now. So if we go with the repaired A/T, I may end up with her red '92S.

Steve (Alfisto Steve) confirms reports he's heard that the Saab ZF HP18Q manual (the A/T) is head and shoulders above the Alfa manual, and even better than the manual ZF put out. (My recollections only -- may be inaccurate)

Michael

[twoliterlover]

I just checked again with my client, TRANSMISSION REBUILD CENTER, 1(800) 336-5525. They have a totally rebuilt 1992 transmission ready to ship for someone who will send a core. If you give them my name they will probably give you a decent discount. But because of their warranty they will request that you get an transmission oil cooler. If you burned up your old transmission a bunch of that old burned up bad fluid contaminated with the metal pieces of the clutches, etc., ill probably be trapped in the cooler and should not be reintroduced to the new transmission because it will ruin it. The company gives an instruction on how to attach the one line pumping to the cooler of the transmission and leaving the return line unattached -- i.e., draining into a bucket until the fluid comes through without contaminants. Sometimes that has not proved to be enough, so they want a new transmission cooler. My client is in Auburn, Washington, one of the suburbs of Seattle. They ship transmission throughout the world. Frankly, if you split a hose and ran out of fluid to the point you couldn't move, then you burned up the transmission and need a rebuild. If it worked for a while after you put a new hose on it and refilled it, you might have stopped in time, but contaminated the transmission anyway by running the burned metal bits and old fluid from the cooler through it. Maybe you can do your own rebuild, but sometimes it is nice to get one to put in immediately when you take the other out. Be sure to ask for a deal as an Alfa Romeo lover friend of mine. Don't let them tease you about having a Fiat. Jay in Seattle.

[jacsil]

After much prodding I was able to get a more complete picture from my daughter who was driving the car both when the transmission line burst and last week when it started slipping.

My daughter was driving up a grade and stopped at several stop signs. When pulling away from about the 4th stop sign the tranny started to slip. Origionally I thought that she was driving along and all of a sudden the car wouldnt go anywhere just revving as if it was in neutral. Instead it started out from the stop and then the trans started slipping. The car would still go forward up the hill but the engine would rev high as the transmission was slipping. She continued on for a few hundred feet (about) and it was up hill. She stopped the car, and since then nothing at all. It does feel like its trying to go forward but its as if the brakes are on.

After this I spoke with the people at ericksons one more time about my transmission. Since I wanted to avoid the expense of rebuild if possible, I asked them a few times about the stuck valve possiblity. The responce was always the same. "forward clutch".

Ericsons said that when comming to a stop the valves will sometimes stick open. one person at erickson asked how fast she was going before comming to a stop. he mentioned that the 4-3 valve would be the usual culprit but she would have needed to get up to 40 mph before comming to a stop. Which she wasnt. 30 would have been really going fast between these two stop signs. I know as I tried.

Based on what happened when the tranny went dead and the fact that about 1 month earlier it had lost a lot of fluid when the transmission line burst. Erickson's, 3 calls and 1 email later , keep saying the same thing its the forward clutch. I even mentioned that it still has reverse. There take is probably damaged when it lost fluid. and that sped up the end of life failure.

I had the car towed to Italian imports in San Carlos California. They are going to do a full inspection before they send they take the tranny out and send it off to be rebuilt. I really dont want to spend more than I have to. Again from what my daughter told me the transmission was actually slipping and the car kept moving forward under its own power albiet with the engine revving very high.

I did contact the transmission company up in washington but kevin who I left a message for did not call me back. So the 91 rebuilt transmission they have is still there.

[Alfisto Steve]

Time for a bump?

[danny164l]

Many good Mechanics have told me and its pretty obvious that ZF trannys run great BUT..their biggest weakness is that they dont handle heat very good and that the cooler they bring many mechs have told me is WAAAAYYY to small for that tranny. A friend of mine who's Porsche guy told me that these trannys can last a long time if you can get them to run about 50 to 60 degrees lower than normal engine Temp. So thats probably off the 180 mark try to get it down to 100 or 110. I kind of thought about it. The man does know what hes talking about because He has worked on Alfas and Porsche's pretty much all his life. Hes a very nice man 60 years old. SOOOOO I tried something to prove myself and pass it on. What I did was I pulled the tranny thermo off and unscrewed the brass nut or the actuator itself I had to heat it up on my stove with water to get the little metal wire if you will to come out which opens the thermo.I measured how far it came out cut a nail put in there to keep open at all times screwed brass nut back and installed it back in engine. I went for I ride..AND HOLY ****!!!! What a Difference!!! Talk about smoother Shifts!!BTW I also made sure I flushed the cooler itself to make sure it was clean inside before I installed it. Tranny definetly runs a little cooler NOT cold but warm although the fan will not kick in until it reaches 180+ but as you drive the airflow really keeps it good dont have to worry about it running to cold because engine itself keeps it warm. Just an Idea to Pass on. I told my friend about it He Just smiled.

[MrT]

So...does this mean that the basic air-cooled tranny intercooler should be retrofitted to an engine coolant intercooler? This would give a lot of heat transfer and keep the oil down to 180-190F. Thoughts? This would mean an alternate radiator, as I see it. But it might be worth the trouble for A/T cars, rather than losing the car when the A/T fails which is what often enough happens.

Michael

[Del]

Two comments. I think that many of these auto trannies benefit from having the fluid changed at least once a year, as with the Chrysler van versions. Those can get hot and burn the fluid which causes it to not work nearly as well. Brother in law has a set of really burnt gears from their Chrysler van. The mechanics said it is essential to change that fluid.

As for the manual on a disc, I just bought an old used laptop really cheap, and use the disc in that. Weights one heck of a lot less, and easy to carry around in the shop. I may also just print out the relevant pages if I'm doing a repair.

[beatle_bayly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrT So...does this mean that the basic air-cooled tranny intercooler should be retrofitted to an engine coolant intercooler? This would give a lot of heat transfer and keep the oil down to 180-190F. Thoughts? This would mean an alternate radiator, as I see it. But it might be worth the trouble for A/T cars, rather than losing the car when the A/T fails which is what often enough happens. Michael

[beatle_bayly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny164l What I did was I pulled the tranny thermo off and unscrewed the brass nut or the actuator itself .<