Alfa Romeo Forums banner

Allow me to lay it on a little thick here...

7K views 64 replies 20 participants last post by  Del 
#1 ·
Greetings Alfistos!

This is my first post on the forum, so please take it a little easy on me. I am new to Alfa's. But not new to high mileage European cars, or the forum communities that surround them.

Without further ado, here's a short story:

I bought this car and I love it:

It's a 1991 164S with 255k miles.
I found it locally on Craigslist and knew enough to know that it was cool and you don't see them very often. Once I visited the car I saw that it was sexy as hell, and that someone had taken very loving care of it for it to be in this nice of shape with that many miles.
So I bought it. Like they say: "I couldn't afford not to." It was just too nice, and too cheap.

After daily driving it for several weeks and performing some basic tune up tasks it was obvious to me that the engine was running on borrowed time. I replace the oil with 15W50 and still had to add a quart of "Honey" oil to quiet a fairly pronounced knock. The car also goes through a quart of oil every 500 miles or so.
It also has what I would call "flat spots" in the acceleration and possibly just the general running. I suspect this is not directly related to the engines age but is a engine management issue. It sort of stumbles on a cylinder every 1.5 seconds or so. If you floor it, you'll notice the jerky acceleration as the power comes on and off inconsistently. It's subtle, and a casual user probably wouldn't notice it. It almost feels like dips in the road if your holding steady speed at a moderate rev level.
Anyhow, all that for another time.

A month or so after I bought the car I found a real nice 1991 164L Automatic with 83k in a junk yard untouched in the next state over. So I drove down there and yanked the engine out of it:

This was probably overly enthusiastic. But again, it was all there in great shape and passing up the opportunity made me anxious. I'm pretty sure I could get my money back out of it if need be.

So here I stand with this engine, and plans to shine it up a little and revive my S.


I'm sure you guys have hundreds of pounds of knowledge to drop on me about how none of this is going to work how I've planned. And harsh words to scold me for being so cavalier. I've already discovered for myself some differences between the engines that might scrap the whole endeavor.

So fire away, but please be gentle. Do your best to give me a crash course on Alfa's because I need it.
Links to great threads are especially appreciated if you have them. That way I can build my knowledge from the same database as you've build yours.
Yes, I know how to use the search function and I have been using it extensively. But if you have the time to spell something important out for me, please do.

Thanks a million!!!
 
See less See more
3
#2 ·
Welcome to the BB. It's always exciting to see someone like you getting into these wonderful cars. You'll love it. Don't expect to get your money back...it's just not going to happen.
I'm glad to see your a wrencher. 164s need wrencher, or people with enough financial resources to keep them up. The car just doesn't work for people who don't wrench and don't have money to pay for it.
You realize there are differences between the S engine and the B&Ls. S is 200HP, B&L are 180HP. S has a pull type clutch, B&L push type clutch. You'll be fine just swapping the fly wheel and clutch from the S to the L auto. There may be some differences in bolt size at the crank, I forget. There's also differences in engine management, but you can swap the S stuff over.
The S has extra sensors for the electronic struts, so keep the S throttle body.
A quart every 500 miles is not unusual for high mileage cars. Probably valve stem seals unless you are seeing smoke out the tail pipe. My now deceased 164B was doing a qt every 350. I ran it that way for a couple of years. Have you checked the compression on the S engine?
Looks like your in for lots of fun. Half of it is in the wrenching.
 
#3 ·
I'm a relative newbie myself, not to Alfas but to the 164 world. I bought my (first) 91 S about 8 months ago and I've been hanging out here ever since. Like you I really fell for the thing and started looking around for a spare engine to rebuild. In my case however I ended up with an entire second car that, other than the color, is identical to the first.

I've learned a lot over the past eight months but I'm far from the expert. I can tell you this however - ANYTHING that you need to do to your car you are going to find has already been done by these guys here and documented. It's not always easy to find it but it's here. I've found that it's often easier to just do a fairly specific Google search and many of the resulting links will lead you right back to this section of the alfabb.

And that's only the half of it. I've also made a lot of friends here, this has been the most accommodating and enthusiastic group of owners I've ever been associated with. I can't tell you how many times these guys have stepped up and just flat out given me stuff to get my car going and I had to go through a lot to bring mine back from the brink as it had suffered through a period of neglect prior to my buying it.

You've definitely come to the right place. Welcome aboard!
 
#4 ·
I think the S engine has significantly more low range torque. I have an S and an L automatico, and you can definitely tell the difference on launch. Also I thought the flywheel threads were different pitch between the auto cars and the manuals. So you'll need to change the bolts, I think.

I actually think you'll be happier rebuilding the S engine because I'm afraid you'll be disappointed with the L engine after enjoying the S engine's higher power and torque.
 
#6 ·
Yes, that's right. I forgot the tranmissions were different. Of course they are a lot different from the S to the Automatic. The S doesn't have the sloppy wet slip clutch the automatic L has. The torque converter; converting torque to heat.
 
#7 ·
Welcome. I come with hundreds of pounds of something, not sure its knowledge! We're an amicable group and always willing to help. Ciao, jc
 
#8 · (Edited)
Alfa 164 engine ID: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/4739049-post195.html

What is VIN of your S and what is engine number you got from L model?

Basic difference between B/L and S engines is cams , pistons, and exhaust manifolds.

As for you swapping in a L engine from A/T model you need to use your S engine rear engine/intermediate axle mount and if sport suspension works the S throttle body as it has extra micro switch in back for suspenion system. If early L engine it may not have oil cooler so if S still has oil cooler set up you will need lower and mid thermostat housings off S for oil cooler line hook up.

As for flywheel bolts you need to verify that both engine crank shafts have same thread pitch for fly wheel bolts. Early have coarse threads later have fine threads.

You can swap in your S cams, matching intake and exhaust tappets if cam lobe are good and tappets surfaces are good and not pitted. Keep tappets marked as to which cylinder they are for when you remove cams and tappets. You will have to install tappets and shims in same positions and then recheck valve clearances.

You will need cam pulley hub puller and pulley holding wrench to get cams out.

Here is some stuff I have posted:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164...alfa-164-alfisto-steves-maintenance-tips.html


Here is my latest show and tell on setting up cams:


http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/307009-my-164-heads-rework.html
 
#9 ·
VanManNW said:
Do your best to give me a crash course on Alfa's
Uh, speaking of crashes, please don't ever carry an engine that way again. A minor front-ender on the freeway could have caused you some real pain. I don't want to even think what a major frontal impact would have done. Yea, I know - those ratchet straps are rated at 10 tons - but what are the attachments in the van rated at? Please rent/borrow a pickup truck next time.

 
#10 ·
I'm pretty sure I could get my money back out of it if need be.
As someone said earlier in this post you are into a financial loser.
However, with relatively little outlay you will have a fun car without monthly loan payments or high insurance cost.

Uh, speaking of crashes, please don't ever carry an engine that way again. A minor front-ender on the freeway could have caused you some real pain. I don't want to even think what a major frontal impact would have done. Yea, I know - those ratchet straps are rated at 10 tons - but what are the attachments in the van rated at? Please rent/borrow a pickup truck next time.
I would probably have done something similar using my own minivan and taking adequate precaution to ensure no sudden stops etc.
Travel safely and worst that happens is the engine rolls forward.....drive like an idiot and that engine will definitely become deadly.

Of course nothing is guaranteed but in life one takes calculated risks in order to capitalize on a situation.

It can be a short safe trip from point A to B instead of having to spend almost all day dealing with UHAUL at the other end of town....and associated expense.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Welcome to the forum and 164 ownership.

I would not worry about the oil burning. Many here have engines that have done that from the beginning (especially S models). I put oil in mine occasionally between oil changes, but it's never enough that I even care to try and figure out how much it actually does burn. It passes emissions and doesn't smoke, so I do not care if it needs half a quart or even a quart every so often. It is not a modern engine that burns nothing, it is an engine designed in the early 70's. Also, I am not convinced that you even need a new engine or that yours is on borrowed time. These engines can and do make a lot of mechanical noises and some make piston slap noises and/or valve train noises. Doesn't mean you can't get many many more miles out of a Busso V6 with piston slap. The valve train can be quieted with exhaust valve adjustments. Have you checked valve clearances? Have you checked compression? Does your red oil pressure light come on? Can you put an external oil pressure gauge on it? Have you tried to fix the stumble with standard diagnostic procedures. Fuel pressures checked? My opinion is that there is no need to get crazy with engine swaps when we don't know if the engine you just bought is better or worse that what is already there (and a proper S already). Do the due diligence on the original engine first. Don't give up on it before that is done.

I agree on the scolding you have already gotten on hauling that engine in the back of a van. Many people do things like that, but it doesn't make it OK. No engine is worth the risk that was taken there.

My own father drove a Volvo 740 wagon with vintage Sears tablesaw in the back all the way from Ohio to TN. I told him not to, but did he listen? Fortunately nothing happened, but I cringe at the thought of what could have happened. I seriously doubt he even tried to secure it (not that it would have even helped). People just don't understand the forces involved with a heavy object traveling at highway speeds.
Charles
 
#12 ·
I don't want to step on any toes here but VanMan hauling that strapped down motor - is it really much more dangerous than riding a motorcycle? Okay, maybe if he had his 12 year old daughter up there with him he'd be up for a scolding but I for one don't participate in this forum to get my wrist slapped.

Maybe it's the aviator in me but one of my heroes was Glenn Curtiss who flew around in a rickity homebuilt airplane with a V8 right behind him and he died of old age.

 
#13 · (Edited)
We live in an age of multiple airbags, seatbelts, side-view mirrors that warn us about cars around us, backup cameras, crumple zones, child seats, daylight driving lights, ABS, side impact protection, etc, etc. All because most of us like to live another day and not die unnecessarily. I think most people can handle a little web scolding (or they should be able to). There are risks that we all take, and then there's risks that are not necessary for anyone to take. I would also like to point out that we don't even know if the engine in the car is really bad or not, because I haven't read anything yet that would indicate that the necessary things to determine that have been done. I'm just say'n.

Also, I know enough about early aviation to know that MANY many people did die from piloting early aircraft, so I don't think it is really a good point to make.

I took Physics at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University so I think I could do the math. It would be "impressive" what an engine could do to a human body. It is a very, very serious matter and nothing to brush off as only slightly risky. It is HUGELY risky. Even a car battery in the back could kill you.
Charles
 
#14 ·
New 164

Nice 164, you have the best factory colour and the best headlights, get a engine in running well and enjoy :drool:
 
#15 · (Edited)
I sure wouldn't be in any hurry to remove and replace that engine, as there is probably nothing wrong with it that a little troubleshooting and maintenance wouldn't take care of.

Sounds pretty normal for oil consumption of 91S's, as my mechanic says that evidently that year of S's got bad rings. My 91S has always used a qt every 400-500 miles in the city since I bought in with 40k miles on it, now with 171k. Other versions of the 164 don't seem to use oil worth talking about in comparison.

Also, a little piston slap isn't a big deal, nothing to break. You may need a new rubber intake bellows if it is old, stiff, and cracked. The engine may need new plugs, recommend the NGK Iridiums. The oil vapor recovery canister probably needs a good cleaning, etc.

Well, you get the idea, don't rush into things, making assumptions which may not hold water. These engines are plenty strong. Try using the Valvoline VR1 20W-50 if you can find it, that's what I use in my 91S. Or, you can try the Liqui-Moly 10W-60, which is what I use in my 94LS, gives slightly better oil pressure at cruise.

I agree with AlfaVeloce; rebuild this S engine if you eventually have to rather than install something else.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I sure wouldn't replace that engine, as there is probably nothing wrong with it that a little troubleshooting and maintenance wouldn't take care of.
You may need a new rubber intake bellows if it is old, stiff, and cracked. The engine may need new plugs, recommend the NGK Iridiums. The oil vapor recovery canister probably needs a good cleaning, etc.
I'd suggest that you carefully remove the distributor cap and clean (or replace) the rotor with sand paper and 6 brass contacts on the cap with a wire brush or a file. They will last almost forever and tend to be very neglected!

As far as oil consumption goes, my 1992 "S" was purchased new and has used about 1 quart per 1,000 miles or 128 quarts! That works out to about $500 worth of oil which is much less than a new engine.

OBTW, my radiator sprung what I fear is the final leak. Funds are very tight; IF anyone has a good used low mileage radiator please PM me.

Mark
 
#16 ·
that van hadn't ever known that amount of power. ciao, jc
 
#17 ·
Nor did it know the drama that it could cause! If you guys knew what've hauled in a GTI I would be shunned. You gotta use what you got sometimes.

Rebuilding or working with the S engine sounds like a better option to me. Might get some more mileage out of what you have with just a little work. Looking forward to seeing you get it sorted out.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I'd do a full diagnostic of the engine. If you post the city where you live there might be a 164 guy on the BB here that could come over and give you an opinion on the engine noise as well as other advice.

Compression
Valve clearance
Check oil pressure w/ mechanical gauge (use oil light sender port) If not accurate replace sensed with SunPro unit and correction resistor (see thread on this subject)
Fuel pressure
Check for spark plug arcing on a dark night
New spark plugs
Check dist cap an rotor. Replace if not pristine.
Check actual coolant temp w/iR gun (dash gauge usually reads 10-20F high)
Check timing belt/tensioner. Replace if last change is unknown

I'd be ok transporting that engine that way, but I 'd be in slow mode on back streets. Although any coroner's report probably would contain the verbiage "like a june bug."
 
#20 ·
VanMan, you'll have to forgive us, we tend to over analyze EVERY thing around here. :001_tongue:

Now let's figure out is this S engine is any good! :w00t: You will need the L engine for your next 164 rescue project. So it will be good to have it on hand. :lol:
Charles
 
#24 ·
Well I hope he's not a flipper trying to make a quick buck. It won't happen, unfortunately, unless they entire deal was for 1500. If it gets running well itll sell for about $3500. Now I really hope he's into the 164 and hes too busy searching and making it happen for that nice find.
 
#25 ·
Don't worry, I'm still here.

Hey! Sorry guys. Didn't mean to stir the pot and then leave out the back door. I've just been out of town camping for a beautiful long weekend.

Tons of great info on in here.
Just to quickly address a few off topic things:
1. The Eurovan is awesome. Definitely my favorite vehicle that I have owned. There really is no other vehicle in the American market with it's mix of features.
2. Since you guys don't know how much I have paid for any of this, you can't really weigh in on whether I could be getting my money back or not. Regardless, it doesn't matter. I didn't buy a 250k mile Italian sport sedan because I thought it was a good financial investment.
3. WRT my cargo setup, a quote comes to mind:

Now back to business:
I did buy the "L" engine based on the assumption that it was the same, or at least very similar to mine. I did do a little quick research to support this assumption prior to pulling it, but alas I was obviously in error.
I'm not sure knowing that would have stopped me however. I would buy the whole car if the JY would sell it to me. And if it would fit in the back of a Eurovan. :tooth:
So based on what I know now, and what else you guys have had to say. I guess I'll stay with the current "S" engine until it really gives up the ghost.
I'm actually looking forward to troubleshooting the "stumbling" problems. The spare sensors I have from the second engine should help with this.

So, to refocus this thread, here are the current problems with my running car aside from the spare engine issues that I will be focusing on:

1. Subtle "misfiring" or "Sputtering" that seems to be occurring. Most noticeable when running the thing through the gears and RPMs at full tilt. There will be subtle drops in the power delivered. I'll have to pay closer attention to whether they correspond to RPM ranges or just to their own frequency.
2. Knocking! Like tapping your knuckle on your dinner table twice a second. I think it could get worse before it is really serious. But I've never driven an engine to such a desperate condition, so I'm not sure what "Bad" is.
Is there any hope for identifying the individual culprit and replacing it? I'm of course thinking rod bearing here. If it's a wrist pin I'm doubtful. Oil pressure testing might help here.
3. Oil consumption. I'll try to keep better track of just how much it is loosing. But it does omit a strong odor at times. Some of this I believe is due to oil being leaked onto the exhaust somewhere. I haven't observed this, but I recognize the smell from a Subaru I used to own.
4. Basic upkeep:
a. Spark plugs and many such components have been done or will be soon.
b. From what I've read, I better just replace the timing belt ASAP.
c. The valves will be adjusted while I'm fixing the valve cover gasket that I'm sure is leaking.
d. Gas is leaking from the top of my tank when it's full. Presumably from a breather hose or fitting. I've already accessed the pump area and didn't see anything.
e. There's more, trust me.

Phew! Hopefully that's enough to let you guys know I'm still listening. Keep em coming, if I can't address them now, at least I'll know where to look in the future.
 
#26 · (Edited)
You had a good reason for not responding...Every year we take the 164S camping at least a couple of times. We love it:)
I suggest the first thing you do is print out the timing template, set the crank on it timing mark and check the cam timing at the marks on the cam gears. That will tell you if the knock is coming from a jumped timing belt. The belt can jump 2 teeth without valves hitting pistons.

Find the link here http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164...s-new-rule-164-v6-owners-please-read-now.html

Welcome back...We missed you already:)
 
#27 ·
check the cam timing at the marks on the cam gears. That will tell you if the knock is coming from a jumped timing belt. The belt can jump 2 teeth without valves hitting pistons.
No, no, the thing doesn't knock and sputter that bad! Lol. Thank goodness.

She runs well and gets almost 24mpg on the highway. I can't imagine there being that big of a timing problem. I would entertain the idea of valve maladjustment possibly causing it. But the timing in general is healthy.

I was thinking something more along the lines of an injector that isn't pulling it's weight.

I haven't yet replaced the cap and rotor. I'm going to clean whichever one looks the youngest and see if that makes a difference.

The plugs are new. The K&N is clean. The MAF was sprayed with cleaner. The Throttle Body was wiped clean.
 
#29 ·
This is an Alfa V6, get used to checking the timing. The first order of business with a new to you Alfa V6 is the timing belt. When was it changed last and when was the last time timing was checked? How old is the tensioner, what kind is it? There are several possibilities. In case you haven't heard, Alfa V6s are known for timing belt jumps and tensioner issues, so now is not the time to be imagining that the timing is fine. 30,000 miles is the change interval, so it is often. This ain't a Toyota (fortunately and also unfortunately). :no: Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the way it is. ;) It's a do not pass go, do not collect $100 until first things first are determined kind of thing. It's the same advice we give everyone, an initiation kind of thing (for good reason). :yes:
Charles
 
#30 ·
The first order of business with a new to you Alfa V6 is the timing belt. When was it changed last and when was the last time timing was checked? How old is the tensioner, what kind is it? There are several possibilities. In case you haven't heard, Alfa V6s are known for timing belt jumps and tensioner issues, so now is not the time to be imagining that the timing is fine.
You're right, you're right, first thing is first. I do have a ton of receipts and notes from the previous owners and all I can find is that the whole water pump timing belt system was replaced 60,000 miles ago. Looks like it's time to start driving the Rabbit again and pour some time and money into this "S" engine.

I've just been glancing over Alfisto Steve's timing belt links and tutorials. Any quick recommendations on where to get parts? I've been to International Auto Parts. Looks like I can get a lot from them. Any other go-to sources I should be aware of?
 
#32 ·
Timing belts need to be changed on mileage, 30,000, but also on time. I think we settled on 5 years for the 12V. Belts have numbers on them indicating when they were made. Fresh belts last longest (don't laugh, it's true). Old stock belts are sold on eBay. It's best to get belts from someone who knows fresh from old and moves stock quickly and keeps fresh belts.
 
#33 ·
First off, congrats on the fine purchase and the spare motor.
2nd, with the NW in your name coupled with the first picture, I have to wonder if you are in Portland. If so, look me up at Pour Wine Bar. Between my buddy Matt and I, we have most any spare part you can imagine.
3rd, They are sexy cars and you will have to get used to the most random of people stopping you in a Fred Meyer parking lot wanting to talk "Alfa."
Robert

PS, which wrecking yard did you find another 164? I could use some switches.
 
#35 ·
I'm actually in Boise Rob. The NW is because I've spent the last five years in Seattle. The JY where I got the engine was in SLC.

Thanks for the parts references. My local guy I've used for my VW's actually dug up a source somewhere on the east coast. I'll probably price compare, but error on giving him my money for the most part.

Tomorrow I'm going to try to get into my belt for a good inspection of it and the tensioner. I really wanted to put about 1000 miles on it over the long weekend. If the belt looks healthy, I'll probably go for it. 1000 miles in a Rabbit on coil overs is not an experience I want to share with a 4yo.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top