Starter Removal

alfisti164l · #1 (**permalink**) 10-02-2006, 04:49 PM

I made a lot of progress getting the starter unbolted (what kind of bonehead put it there instead of in front of the engine where all the room is?) I still can't however get the top bolt out of the starter (the one behind the solenoid). Thus, I was wondering if anyone has any experience or suggestions regarding this?
Thank you,
without my beloved Alfa in Colorado,
Jon

john.harrill · #2 (**permalink**) 10-02-2006, 04:59 PM

There are several threads on the BB about this, as starter removal is required for separating the gearbox from the engine.

**Richard2** · #3 (**permalink**) 10-02-2006, 08:28 PM

Later this week, I will be installing my starter and planned on posting some pics of the top bolt installation method I have successfully used in the past. I hope I can find my camera which seems to have grown legs and walked off.
The tools needed are a 36" 3/8 extension, a universal joint and a deep socket.
Briefly the procedure is:
Remove the right wheel well liners, both forward and rear pieces.
Assemble the socket, universal and extension using paper towel for a very tight fit.
Feed the socket/universal/extension through the loop in the brake line in the right wheel well.
From underneath the car, line the socket up so that it is on top of the starter toward the front of the starter solenoid.
Carefully feed the socket in turning it slightly back and forth until you feel it grab the bolt. This my take a little time and some trial and error, but the socket will grab the bolt.
Remove the bolt.

Note: This works best if the other 2 starter bolts are in place and at least snugged up to hold the starter in place. You don't want the starter moving around while removing the top bolt. It should be the first one you remove, not the last.
The installation of the top bolt is the reverse of the above except:
Install the other 2 bolts first.
Put a nut into the socket first to take up some space so the head of the bolt doesn't slide into the socket too far, but is held at the end of the socket.
Force the head of the bolt into the socket through a couple of thicknesses of paper towel to hold the bolt straight and tight.
A lighter "touch" is required to install the bolt to get it in the hole.

Note: This method works mainly because the top starter bolt hole is close to the top of the starter body which you can use as a guide to slide the socket into the hole. The solenoid is on one side and the block is on the other side to act as guides.

The few minutes spent in trial and error to get the socket on the bolt sure beats the time taking out the false fire wall or other componets.

I'll try to post pics, but afraid I left my camera in Tacoma last week

PS I bought my 1st Alfa from Ferarri of Denver and for sometime had the only 164S in Wyoming

)

alfisti164l · #4 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 05:05 PM

I got a new starter, yet after 12 or so hours of trying your method and others, I still cannot budge the top bolt. I can reach it but only with a six inch extension with a 3 inch handle that doesn't give nearly sufficient leverage to move the bolt. I could not even reach it with the 30" extension. Is there a difference between automatic and manual cars that would hinder this, or does the oil filter need to be removed? Please, anyone with ideas? I may have to remove the dreaded intake plenum next... These Alfas, with all their positive aspects, are a pain in the *** to work on... Also, should I have to remove the rear manifold as the factory service manual suggests, how is that accomplished?

karlcchen · #5 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 06:29 PM

I have removed my starter motor heat shield and replaced it with exhaust thermo insulation fabrics. I forgot which brand. The stock starter insulation metal is hard to install and get in the way of working on anything there.

12 hours working on one single blot is very “acceptable” in Alfa 164. "Pain in the S" is an understatement, IMHO. I have been writing Olympics Committee about the special proposal of "Car Mechanic Olympics". The car of choice is Alfa 164, what else?

My suggestion of the minimum qualification for contestant: in a tight space that your arm was forced to bend three times, using only two fingers (no thumb), you must be able to hold a wrench, unable to see what your are working on, by sheer "sense and sensibility", be able to loosen and tighten a 13mm hex bolt/nut quickly. IMHO, any mechanic can’t do this is no even qualified to working on Alfa 164.

Karl

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfisti164l

I got a new starter, yet after 12 or so hours of trying your method and others, I still cannot budge the top bolt. I can reach it but only with a six inch extension with a 3 inch handle that doesn't give nearly sufficient leverage to move the bolt. I could not even reach it with the 30" extension. Is there a difference between automatic and manual cars that would hinder this, or does the oil filter need to be removed? Please, anyone with ideas? I may have to remove the dreaded intake plenum next... These Alfas, with all their positive aspects, are a pain in the *** to work on... Also, should I have to remove the rear manifold as the factory service manual suggests, how is that accomplished?

**Alfissimo Int.** · #6 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfisti164l

I got a new starter, yet after 12 or so hours of trying your method and others, I still cannot budge the top bolt. I can reach it but only with a six inch extension with a 3 inch handle that doesn't give nearly sufficient leverage to move the bolt. I could not even reach it with the 30" extension. Is there a difference between automatic and manual cars that would hinder this, or does the oil filter need to be removed? Please, anyone with ideas? I may have to remove the dreaded intake plenum next... These Alfas, with all their positive aspects, are a pain in the *** to work on... Also, should I have to remove the rear manifold as the factory service manual suggests, how is that accomplished?

**Richard2** · #7 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 07:28 PM

1. Read this thread.
Upper Starter Bolt

2. If your really frustrated and want to spend another 12 hours, Start at the right wheel well, remove wheel well liner, remove the steering pump, remove the steering pump mounting bracket, remove the oil filter, if you have one, remove the oil cooler. With all of this out of the way, guess what? you can see the bolt from the wheel well. I've done it that way also. It took me 2 day once to get a starter out. From what I remember, you still have to remove the heat sheild and loosen off the exhaust manifold nuts to get the starter out unless your removing the transmission.

alfisti164l · #8 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 05:12 PM

Halelujiah! I got the top bolt out with a six inch extension, a deep socket, and a rachet. Now the starter appears to be stuck. Does the header need to be removed to get the starter out, or the axle?

Alfisto Steve · #9 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 05:30 PM

If you removed all three starter bolts it should come off steel spacer between starter and bell housing but is this a 24v engine or do you have a bracket in front of starter bolted to block?

Does starter move at all? It is possible heat shield is causing binding, if so loosening two bolts for rear two exhaust ports that hold heat shield and try again.

alfisti164l · #10 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 05:33 PM

The starter is loose. It is a 1991 164L. The thing moves freely, but hangs up on the mounting bracket for the axle. It can be moved throughout the space, but will not come out the bottom. Any tricks? Thanks.

Alfisto Steve · #11 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 05:39 PM

If starter is loose but will not come by IM axle is header down pipe in the way? I usually take IM axle out of the way and disconnect down pipes from front and rear exhaust manifolds but be careful and support pipes so flex joints don't break under stainless steel mesh.

alfisti164l · #12 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 05:43 PM

Everything from the exhaust has been removed with the exception of the header. Is there a way to get the IM axle out without spilling gearbox oil all over everything? Sorry for the ignorance. I'm 18 and trying to get my Alfa (which I've had 2 years) back on the road, but I lack a lot of experience. So thank you to you guys.

Alfisto Steve · #13 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 05:48 PM

Only by draining fluid first by pulling differential drain plug and catching fluid in a oil drain pan. If you just pull axle have a drain pan underneath.

MrT · #14 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 07:09 PM

Why are you removing the starter, there, Jon? I think I lost track over the thread. And do you really, really need to get it out? If you are removing the tranny, then maybe you can just leave it in situ because the bolts are no longer holding the transmission case in place. Just a thought. Like Skip Patnode says, "Try an aspirin before resorting to brain surgery." Or words that effect. But I've been wrong pretty recently.

Michael

alfisti164l · #15 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 09:13 PM

I'm removing the starter because it went bad. I think I lost one of the bearings within it, so now all it does is whine. The gearbox was rebuilt last year. I should've had them replace it.... Oh well, c'est la vie. But yes, the starter does need to be replaced, so I need to figure out how to do it. If only I could now get it past the exhaust manifold. I'll try loosening that tomorrow. Day 5 of the Great Alfa Starter Project. I'll get it replaced eventually, at which point my Alfa will be back on the road. Thanks for all the help.