Darn 164S trunk hinge mounting failure

[Alfisto Steve]

I had/have a slight bulging on rear quarter panel skins. I found out why today. I knew that the 164S with heavy spoiler on deck lid and gas struts on hinges was famous for this problem.

Anyhow, I found out what happened to mine. the hinge pivot point mounting pad is/was spot welded to chassis. If spot welds break then gas strut rod end attached to hinge starts pushing against inside of quarter panel skin and causes it to bulge out.

I have to repair both L/R hinge points and bulging quarter panel skins now on BB2.

I only had time and enough sweat beads to remove left side today.

I had to remove rear seat, rear interior light, seat belt retractor fairing, and seat belt retractor to get to screws to remove to remove inner side molding and passenger grab handle to even see where pivot point was spot welded to chassis innards.

I surely can't weld mount back in place so will have to drill 3 or 4 holes in it to match holes in chassisi structure and use sheetmetal screws to reinstall it/them.

I have to remove right side next and see if any spot welds broken loose there, too.

I will have to do body work while hinges out so I can get body dolly inside skin to back up body hammer on outside..

Never a dull moment around my garage!

I plan to remove 164S hinges and gas struts and install 164B/L hinges and springs instead. Also I am installing a 164L deck lid without S spoiler and third break light and hope to find a Zender or Lester style lip spoiler for it.

I have spare ser of 164L hinges and springs from Old Nero the donor.

[Alfissimo Int.]

I have been offering the lighter struts for this. They may not be as strong as stock but at least they are not as tough on the hinges. I had to repair a few customers cars of this same failure. Nightmare. I have also changed the struts to the springs if at all possible. Only of course if the car had the spring mounts. A lot still do. But you also need some donor hinges.

[Roadtrip]

My S doesn't have struts, just the springs. I can't see them nor feel them. The trunk lid will fall on it's own under the slightest provocation, so I wonder if someone took them out in the past. It's a 6/90 build. Did they add the S struts after that? The parts book shows it but in no detail at all. The 91 repair manual doesn't show or address the struts at all.

[Alfisto Steve]

I have donor L/R spring hinges and L/R springs and car has spring attach points. So probably will do conversion. Looks like production change C/D0453 dated 09-1990 is what changed the S to gas struts for deck lid.

Also I am putting on spoiler-less lighter 164L deck lid and hope to find a Zender or Lester like lip spoiler. Until I find correct looking lip spoiler will keep deck lid plain.

Probably will use a S style third brake light or some small LED set up inside rear window.

I now also have set of LS side skirts to replace the S ground effects.

Original S/Q deck lid gas struts are 60566147 and lighter duty LS struts are 60591762. Myron's LS ones pretty dead now and won't hold up his deck lid but at least no bulging of rear quarter panels on his.

[alfahill]

When I had to do the broken hinge mount 13 years ago, I could not see myself being able to get any kind of weld into that area. I ended up cutting out the sheet metal around the hinge mount, welding the hinge mount to it out of the car, and then attaching the sheet metal section, with added metal tabs, back into the car. That repair has held up well so far.

When I changed out the hinge struts for springs to avoid having to do this again on the other side of the trunk, I recall being told that the trunk springs for the S lid were stronger and a different part number than the L springs.

I recently got rid of the spoiler and like the car better without it. It gives me a better view of the cars that I pass!

[Alfissimo Int.]

It's hard to say which cars had the mounts for the springs. I had a 1993 car that had them and a 1992 that did not, I even had a 1994 LS that had the the mounts too. I think for the most part Alfa tried to prevent they knew what they were doing but for the most part they used what they had left in production, so some ended up with them anyway even though they were not suppose to have springs at all. I prefer the springs. Much easier to open and close with no damaging effects.

[Alfisto Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfahill I recently got rid of the spoiler and like the car better without it. It gives me a better view of the cars that I pass!

[Del]

My 91S has only springs, which cause no problems. There were several interations of the S springs, according to the parts books my dealer has.

The 94LS has just the struts, and I'm very careful about raising and lowering the trunk lid. I never overpower the movement speed of the struts, and have adjusted the latch to close with a feather touch. No one touches the lid except me. So far, there is a lot of clearance between the hinge mechanism and the inside of the fender on each side.

I really do prefer the spring design, and am toying with the idea of changing the LS over to something like the S. Would need spring brackets of some sort, though.


"I recently got rid of the spoiler and like the car better without it. It gives me a better view of the cars that I pass"

Did the opposite, and added an S spoiler to the LS, as I think it disguises the somewhat "bulbous" look of the trunk lid of a champagne colored trunk lid. Compared side by side with the original spoilerless LS, the S with the spoiler didn't really have that awkward bulbous appearance. Now the LS doesn't as well. IMO, of course. My mirrors work well for letting me see the cars I have passed, wink, wink.

[Alfissimo Int.]

I agree with Del. You need to take your time opening the lid with the struts. This will put less stress on the pivot area which always is where it breaks, gets loose and tears into fender.

[Roadtrip]

Looks like it could be a pretty easy reinforcement. Drill out the rivets and tap the holes. Screw in a machine screw from the back, through the plate and tack weld it in place so it doesn't turn. Then place the assembly through the holes in the sheet metal, then a doubler plate/washer and a nut to lock it down.

[Alfisto Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadtrip Looks like it could be a pretty easy reinforcement. Drill out the rivets and tap the holes. Screw in a machine screw from the back, through the plate and tack weld it in place so it doesn't turn. Then place the assembly through the holes in the sheet metal, then a doubler plate/washer and a nut to lock it down.

[Alfisto Steve]

Found enough time today to install 164L hinges, springs and deck lid on my 164s today.

I sprayed hinge mount pads and pivot pin area of hinges with John Deere tractor grapite dry film lubricant before assembly.

I also used two larger washers than opening in chassis structure so even if either mounting pad was to break free again those big washers will prevent it from moving very much.

I then installed two new elastic stop nuts as original nuts were not stop nuts.

I managed with those big washers to take out 99% of any play in pivot points.

Turns out I must have been feeling stronger or these springs I had in my stash were weaker than last ones I tried to hook up on Old Nero. Anyway, I was able to stretch them easily by hand. They are strong though because even in just the first notch closest to hinge they lift up the non-spoilered lid easily.

[Del]

Looks great, Steve. Will have to look at my LS for doing something like this, although using just the springs, by design, doesn't cause the hinge distortion problems that the struts do because the hinge structural geometry and load path is quite different. Meaning that your reinforcements are probably not really required, but never hurts. Even with the slightly stronger springs of the lid w/spoiler of the S, the spring loaded hinge system is simple and direct (no weird load paths), and I've had no problems with it all the years of owning the S.

The OEM strut attachment arrangement to the hinge however, is a design mess, and is totally undersized for the loads and moments created.

[Alfisto Steve]

Well, today I mounted a spare 164S third brake light, I got from a friend years ago after I sold him a new one, on rear parcel shelf and drilled a hole in shelf to route wiring into trunk. I tied in new wiring for relocated 3rd S brake light wiring into original wire harness white-red wire for S at right trunk hinge area. I had to drill hole in chassis skin next to trunk interior light for light ground wire. I had to replace a burned out bulb in his old S light assembly with a 7w 12v landscape walkway light bulb I had from Home Depot. Don't know if those little original halogen bulbs for S light assy are available at a price I am willing to pay.

Does anybody even have AR or generic p/n for the halogen bulbs that go into 164S 3rd brake light?

Once I got the light mounted I did a little leather treatment on rear seat back and bottom on picnic table so I could get to back of head rest and where two halves meet up.

I am keeping the 164S deck lid intact with original spoiler and brake light. I even am leaviing gas struts attached at chassis ends and saving hinges for gas struts just in case I decide to sell car to a boy racer dude.

Next project is to fit 164LS side skirts in place of boy racer 164S ones.

Stay tuned as I move forward with this Sleeper 164S.

[scatlin]

Resurrecting this thread after doing some work in the trunk this weekend.

I noticed on my car (1993 164S) I have two spring-type hinges and on the drivers side I also have a strut. On the passenger side I have no strut, but do have mounting points for one. I believe these struts are "Prop 60566147" on the ePer database. Is that expected - to have springs AND struts on this car? And should I pick up a replacement strut for the passenger side? It seems like the strut on a single side could put uneven pressure on the trunk lid.