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No Start (91 164L auto)............Help Please

3K views 39 replies 6 participants last post by  Alfissimo Int. 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello All, So the good old 91 L auto with low miles decided not to start today forr no apparant reason. I tried to start it repeatedly but it wont turn over. here is my findings after reading a few posts regarding subject:

>it was low on fuel so i added some. it did not make a difference.
>checked Fuel Pump relay wires and pin 30 has 12v when ignition is on and jumping 30 and 87 i hear the Fuel pump hiss in the trunk.
>checked for vacum leaks in AFM...nothing found
>sprayed starter fluid in AFM flap (opens freely...and clean) and engine was bucking as in trying to start but still wont turn over.
>checked for fuel pressure in fuel rail while cranking engine but nothing came out.
>car ran like a champ with no problems other than a hesitation to start (hot or cold) a few times in the past 3-4 weeks.
> And yes it is the same car i posted about regarding failing CA emissions which has not been addressed yet, AND valve noise when under load climbing up hill which turned out to be wrong type of gas and not timing issue thank GOD.....it is fine now:)

Things I am have not checked yet:
>Swapping relay with another to see if that is the problem (is there another simiar relay somewhere in the car that i can swap to test???)
>fuel pump strainer or any of the hoses in the tank itself.
 
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#2 ·
ya need fuel at the fuel rail to run

I would remove the fuel line at the rail (downstream of the regulator) and jumper the relay to see if your fuel pump is delivering anything to the rail.. If not then check /replace fuel filter, then pull fuel pump out of tank and replace the hoses
 
#3 ·
I did that already with relay in place and with jumper and nothing came out. I am trying to avoid the fuel pump removal for obvious reasons untill i am 99.9 percent positive thats where the problem is :( Is it possible it is a vacum hose problem in the fuel system or that hose inside the tank that i have heard nothing good about? any idea where and what does it look like and where i can get one?
 
#4 ·
well, ;lets think this thru

If the fuel pump is humming, we would expect fuel delivery to the rail as the only thing between the fuel pump exit and the rail is, in order from the fuel pump, fuel line to the filter, the filter itself, the regulator and the fuel rail.

There is either a blockage in the line somewhere or the fuel pump is not delivering fuel. My money is on the fuel pump assembly as there are 2 rubber hoses in the tank as part of the assembly that if split or disconnected, will not deliver fuel out of the tank. You could test this by removing the inlet to the fuel filter, jumper the relay and see if fuel is delivered out the open line upstream of the fuel filter. This will at least tell you if the pump is delivering anything at all
 
#5 ·
If no fuel will come out of fuel pressure regulator return hose but pump is running in tank when with key on and relay pins 30 to 87 are jumpered you may need to do the tank diving and plan on a hose replacement in your future.
 
#6 ·
My brother is having similar problems with his 164. Where are the filter and this hose in the tank? How do you replace the hose? What does it do?
 
#7 ·
fuel filter

is located on the underside of the car, passenger side rear IIRC, its a cylinder shaped object, abour 2.5 inches in diameter and 3.5 inches in length that has a fuel line going into it and another one coming out of it.

Pull the fuel pump assembly out of the tank. It will be obvious what the rubber hoses are there for -- they connect the fuel pump outlet to the outlet on the fuel pump assembly cover and return line
 
#9 · (Edited)
Some 164 fuel tank pump hose info links

This stuff may help understand more about in tank fuel pump, pump filter basket, rubber hose(s) between pump and tank cover. Early models have one short hose just under cover and later ones have two hoses - short one under cover and other one replacing "plastic tubing" at elbow at pump.

SAE30R10 spec submersible hose is desired but SAE30R9 spec or equal external fuel injection hose will last a fairly long time. I am still running it in my 164B and I installed it almost 15 years ago now. Don't think they listed than spec back then.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164...64-12v-steel-fuel-tank-internal-plumbing.html

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164...4-12v-usa-model-fuel-pump-steel-gas-tank.html

Plastic non-USA tank set up
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/92604-broke-down.html

As for external fuel filter it is as Bob says under right side of car between rear wheel and rear door area but it is hardly ever the problem.
 
#10 ·
Bob and Steve, thank you so much for all your help. just wanted to also ask about the submersibale hose replacement number that you listed today, is it possibel to find at local AutoZone or such? and are those the numbers to ask for? Also i do not have the right toll for the original clamps so would normal hose clamps be suffecient? As far as the washers needed to secure tha whole assembly back to prevent leakage and fumes, steve mentioned home depot for parts, is it just a type of washer you are referring to or is it a washer and rubber gasket or something? please advise.

Thx
 
#11 ·
You have to search for submersible fuel hose. Here is one listing I found on internet:
AutoParts2020 :: Gates Submersible Fuel Line Hose Gates 27093 5/16" aka 7.9mm FI submersible hose.

Autozone stocks SAE j30R9 but not submersible R10 as far as their web site shows.

You can get by with R9 if you can't find R10.

As for Home Depot molded steel/neoprene washers look in metal pull cabinets for metric stuff that is where I found them in nuts and bolts section.
 
#12 ·
You have to search for submersible fuel hose. Here is one listing I found on internet:
AutoParts2020 :: Gates Submersible Fuel Line Hose Gates 27093 5/16" aka 7.9mm FI submersible hose. They don't ship so you have to live near their stores.

Autozone stocks SAE j30R9 but not submersible R10 as far as their web site shows.

You can get by with R9 if you can't find R10.

As for Home Depot molded steel/neoprene washers look in metal pull cabinets for metric stuff that is where I found them in nuts and bolts section.

You can reuse factory clamps that are inside tank if somebody hasn't been there before and used wrong kind that look like radiator screw type clamps that cut into rubber.
 
#13 ·
ok, so i did one more test to make sure. I disconnected fuel hose going into fuel rail and with relay plugged in crancked the car and fuel started tp seap from hose....not much pressure. I disconnected relay and jumped 30 and 87 (pink and pink & white) and crnked engine and smae thing happened...NOW, is that normal?? or should ther be a gush of fuel coming out of that hose? If tha latter is true does that confirm the hose in fuel tank suspected all along? Sorry for all the questions. Finally, steve mentioned reusing original clamps if present but dont they require a special tool to remove and re attach? Hope to hear from you soon since i have to tackle ths problem first thing in the morning since this is my daily driver.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Hose clamps on hoses in tank are reusable type that take a screwdriver or small socket to tighten.

Now if clamps on fuel hose are special type some are one time use and some are reclampable with special pliers/tool but those shoud be replaced with correct fuel injecion hose clamps that do not cut into rubber like a radiator hose clamp with serrations in band for worm gear in clamp.

Now for the land of Oz story. Your corrosion and water in the tank story is why you never store an airplane or a boat without filling fuel tank first. Mositure forms above the fuel level and over time water level rises in bottom of tank.

I try to keep all my cars with a full tank and use fuel stabilant in tank if not driving them often.

The last tank I had to have cleaned and relined at local radiator shop got a drain port installed so they could flush out all the cleaning chemicals and I can low point drain it in the future if needed to remove water or fuel.

You can remove external fuel filter next and see if it is clogged and if so try jumping fuel pump relay socket again and see if you get any fuel flow and pressure out of hose coming from tank to filter. If not dive the tank, inspect the rubber hose(s) and pump filter and rubber mount inside plastic basket.

Be sure rubber bushing 60572049 that pumps mounts in has not crumbled in filter basket and gotten into pump impeller as early pumps didn't have extra filter screen on bottom of pump (which can be clogged too).

That damper pad 82404491 on bottom of basket helps keep pump assembly from swinging in tank during high G manuevers.
 
#15 ·
Well, we disconnected the hose from the fuel rail on my brother's 164, cranked the engine and nothing came out. So we took the fuel pump out and discovered that the big rubber grommet thing that insulates it from the plastic housing was completely soft and disintegrating and the metal parts on top were corroded, probably due to the water in the bottom of the tank. The filter/strainer on the bottom of the housing was covered in black crap from the rubber. We can only assume that the filter under the car is completely blocked. We are doing this job at Italservice where the car has had new timing belt and water pump fitted and failed to start afterwards. So it was off round the corner to Turin Imports for a new fuel pump and filter. Our problem now is how to pump the fuel out of the tank and flush out the rest of the rubbish and water in there. As the car is on the ground the tank is not high enough and the siphon wasn't long enough, so we need to find either an electric or a mechanical hand pump to get it all out.
The next problem is what to replace the star shaped rubber thing with that fits under the fuel pump housing to presumably stop vibration, because it too is rotten. We can't get one of those so far, so has anyone got an idea what to use instead? God knows what was in the fuel to rot the rubber like that! The pump was a second hand one the car yard gave us and we didn't notice it was like that when we put it in. It is possible that it was already rotten but we didn't notice it when it was dry. Let's hope no other rubber parts have gone soft.
 
#17 ·
We have a new pump, rubber bushing and external filter to install. The thing we don't have is the damper pad. The old one will crumble if we reuse it. I will try my other Alfa parts supplier for for that, but if they don't have one what could I use instead? What sort of rubber is suitable for use in the tank? Maybe we could put some little rubber foot things in the holes that the damper pad fits into.
 
#18 ·
Maybe you could use 60806479 rubber gasket if available for euro style tank fuel sender and attach it to bottom of pump basket somehow by punching holes in it.

USA tank sender uses a different gasket 60542717 for sender that has bolt holes in it. Some later euro tanks use it too. It would be easier to attach to basket.

Some kind of a neoprene rubber sheet should work too.
 
#19 ·
Aghhhhh

OK, so back to my problem and after removing the whole assembley out of the tank and realizing that whoever did the pump before did not tighten any of the hoses much (hose was not even attached to anything) now i am ready to re install back in the tank but i cannot for some reason slide the whole assembley back in> it keeps hitting that little bump in the tank directly under opening. I looke at all illustrations by steve and it looks the same to me. is there a special trick to re installing assembley back in tank?
 
#20 · (Edited)
You have to roll/rotate assembly slightly and tilt it some to get basket to drop over rear of tank bump up.
 
#22 ·
ouvh running.

So I put the assembly back in finally and everything looked good> i start the car and it hesitated a couple of yimes but then it did. Well here we go again, Its bucking and running like S...t as if its running on 1.5 cylinders. I checked fuel presuure at the rail and swapped plugs andchecked grounds and AFM, runs like it is ready to die. Any ideas???
 
#24 ·
So I put the assembly back in finally and everything looked good> i start the car and it hesitated a couple of yimes but then it did. Well here we go again, Its bucking and running like S...t as if its running on 1.5 cylinders. I checked fuel presuure at the rail and swapped plugs andchecked grounds and AFM, runs like it is ready to die. Any ideas???
So what did you replace in tank the hose(s) or just tighten clamps? Did you inspect inside pump filter basket for condition/cleaniliness of filter and rubber pump mount, etc?

Do you now have fuel flow and pressure at fuel rail? Can you hold about 35-42 psi on a test gage teed into fuel hose to rail coming from tank?
 
#25 ·
I did not have to replace anything, Hose was just off, cause clamp was not tight enough. I was told by PO that hose was recent and it did look fine and newish to me as well. I cleaned basket and everything else and made sure all fitings were tight. Sorry i mis spoke re: fuel pressure since I do not have a gauge to test it rail. It flows freely though. Do you still think that hose needed to be replaced. The car starts up right away now but is running realllllyy rough to the point where it cannot be driven.
 
#26 ·
If is starts right up you must have fuel pressure. If is is running rough like it is missing you need to check inside dizzy cap for condition of rotor, carbon button and 6 wire terminals. Check plug wires pulling one at a time and see which cylinders are not firing. No change in running with wire off plug means that plug, wire or injector for that cylinder not working.

Check injector connectors if cylinder is dead as well as checking wires and plugs.

Chances are you have a fouled sparkplug or two or an injector connector loose/corroded.

Check air inlet hose for cracks shake air cleaner and air flow meter to check for air leak in hose that will change idle.
 
#27 ·
Steve, i have done all of the above already and noticed a difference except for cyl #5. Cap and rotor look fine and so does connection at coil> spark plugs were oily on top but dri on bottom. I replaced them anyways. Checked AFM and vac hoses connected to big hose, they wer loose and oily. I claned and reinstalled but no difference. Canister in back of engine near fire wall hoses had a lot of sludge and oil. I am not sure how it comes off but while fiddling with it big hose coming out of it and going into back cyl bank cracked in my hands. Very dry and old. So now i have to replace that.Aghhh. Any idea if that is a hose i can find locally? I cant think of anything else that is causing it to act this way other than ,aybe air trapped in fuel system?? The car ran like a dream, very smooth and idled perfectly up untill the fuel pump saga. I wonder if i should take another look at that hose in fuel pump assembly as much as i would hate to. I am having violent thoughts right now about this car...............
 
#28 ·
The car ran like a dream, very smooth and idled perfectly up untill the fuel pump saga. I am having violent thoughts right now about this car...............
My brother's car was just the same and he is having the same thoughts as you at the moment. We are hoping it will fire up OK after we clean the tank and fit the new pump and filter. Good luck with yours.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Still no Improvement whatsoever

Thx Steve, I did exactly that this morning already....still running like its misfiring. I took the Dist cap out again....6 copper tips have some black marks on them, did not see any visible cracks in cap. spring is still springy, what else am i supposed to be looking for? This is really frustrating. All plugs are new. It is misfiring and bucking so bad that i have to shut it off immediately. Now what? Again this happened without warning and just after the pump removal and re-install.
 
#31 ·
I had exactly the same problem. However in my case it was the rubber hose in the tank. It looked fine but on closer inspection I saw a hairline split in the hose. Promptly called jason at alfissimo and had the necessary stuff sent to me. Jason has the hose and its cut to the right length.
 
#32 ·
change your fuel filter ASAP

Easy and cheap to do. If the filter clogged up a bit, it would induce backpressure on the rubber hose on the fuel pump assy, leading to it popping off the tubeas you reported it was not connected at all. Symptom-cause-effect.
 
#33 ·
Easy and cheap to do. If the filter clogged up a bit, it would induce backpressure on the rubber hose on the fuel pump assy, leading to it popping off the tubeas you reported it was not connected at all. Symptom-cause-effect.
I would change it for the hell of it might make a difference.
I was not sure from reading all this if you checked the fuel pump basket? If not, I am thinking the basket is clogged up or the bottom of the fuel pump screen is clogged up. Most likely from dirt and fuel pump rubber gasket pieces.

I had a customer here with same issue. Tank was full of black goo and basket was just covered in it.

Change the hose out. I have them cut to size already. Clean out the basket and bottom of pump if needed.
I think you need to pull it again, check and clean it up, replace hoses and make sure check valve on top of pump does not have any gunk in it either.

Jason
 
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