Is the Q4 your fave 164?

sonny · #1 (**permalink**) 11-06-2009, 08:14 AM

It has struck me that those who have multiple 164's, one of which is a Q4 (the 4WD version sold in Europe), do not unanimously declare the Q4 their favorite 164. One US owner actually prefers his 91-93 12V. Is this an inaccurate observation on my part, or what? I am curious because I have never driven a Q4 but I might be motivated to go through the US importation process if it is really worth it.

If the Q4 turns you off to drive, do you think it is because of the weight and driveline loss penalties of the 4WD system? Or is it because you prefer the lower-rev performance peak of the 12V over the 24V engine? Or is it nice enough to drive, but too demanding in upkeep? Or, if the Q4 is your favorite 164, why?

**Alfissimo Int.** · #2 (**permalink**) 11-06-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonny

It has struck me that those who have multiple 164's, one of which is a Q4 (the 4WD version sold in Europe), do not unanimously declare the Q4 their favorite 164. One US owner actually prefers his 91-93 12V. Is this an inaccurate observation on my part, or what? I am curious because I have never driven a Q4 but I might be motivated to go through the US importation process if it is really worth it.

If the Q4 turns you off to drive, do you think it is because of the weight and driveline loss penalties of the 4WD system? Or is it because you prefer the lower-rev performance peak of the 12V over the 24V engine? Or is it nice enough to drive, but too demanding in upkeep? Or, if the Q4 is your favorite 164, why?

NYCpersian · #3 (**permalink**) 11-06-2009, 09:43 AM

Jason is on point and I think most would go for a Q4 given the opportunity and funds. However the torque of the 12V S models is fantastic for city driving and all parts are reasonable give the low buy in of the car itself. We're lucky to have sources like Alfissimo that can get the euro parts as well...

g84 · #4 (**permalink**) 11-06-2009, 03:06 PM

Its hard to compare normal 164 with the Q4. The Q4 looks like a 164 inside and out, it sounds like a 164 but the feel when you drive it , its a Q4. Does it feel like any other car no its a Q4. You need to drive one to see if you like it. Some says it feels heavy and sluggish compared to to the Q with same engine. Its not a town car but when you take it it out on a twisty road in the countryside and you can play with all the six gears in the Getrag gearbox its a feeling you never forget. The total confidence the awd system gives you in any road conditions, dry ,wet or snow is just stunning.

JK
164 Q4 -95
146 Ti -97

jontg428 · #5 (**permalink**) 11-06-2009, 07:51 PM

I have ridden in Lenard's, and its one sweet ride! Interesting to note, even as a high end 164 model in Europe, the sunroof was still an option. If you can find one and afford one, it would most likely be worth it.

**164 FAMILY** · #6 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 02:46 AM

Having owned over 30 164 model cars and currently owning 10+ the Q4 is my favorite of them all. Its ride is unique compared to the FWD 164s. It has its own sound and feel to it. The gear box is flawless. The AWD system is unmatched even by modern cars to date. I like exhaust note on the Q4 as well. I have had quite a few Alfisti passengers in the car and one guy a GTV6 guy said the exhaust has a hiss to it that he really likes. It is still really a 164 yes but here in the states the tail lights and head lights are way better. The auto suspension is much like the S/Q but it feels more active and responsive in my opinion. I really dont think the car feels that much slower that a regular Q but I would like to do a side by side comparison. I do have GTA cams in my Q4 so that helps a bit but the rest of the car is stock. As far as importing a Q4 good luck with that it has been disused by many but I do not know if it has been done. I say the Q4 is my favorite 164 followed by a S, and a LS that the wife had a while back. I drive a 12v auto as a daily driver and a 24v auto as well. Thats just because I can go to Walmart, movies, dinner, ETC. I do not have to park where I can see my car and really not worry about it. Hope this helps and if you are ever in the area stop by and have a drive it will put a smile on your face.

kanga · #7 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 04:43 AM

I agree, the Q4 system makes the car. I had a 164Q in Australia in the early 90's and always wanted a Q4 but it never arrived as Alfa left Australia in 1992 and didn't come back until 1999. I now have a 159 3.2 Q4 and it is brilliant, but most people in Australia and Europe prefer a standard Front Wheel Drive 159 3.2 as they would prefer less weight and less drive train power losses(22% compared to 33% on the 159 3.2 Q4) than the dreaded torque steer of a powerful front wheel drive car, but I think the Q4 system is the essence of the car and it is by far the best to drive and the balance and grip the car has is amazing,. It is pleasing to see you guys in the US feeling the same way as I do as I have been definitely in the minority regarding my views on the 159 3.2 Q4 in Australia.
However the 164 Q was a great car and the 24 valve quad cam I gather was even better, but it also didn't come to Australia, but I would love to get a 164 Q4 but I think they would be hard to find in right hand drive as I don't think any were ever made.

**Alfissimo Int.** · #8 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanga

I agree, the Q4 system makes the car. I had a 164Q in Australia in the early 90's and always wanted a Q4 but it never arrived as Alfa left Australia in 1992 and didn't come back until 1999. I now have a 159 3.2 Q4 and it is brilliant, but most people in Australia and Europe prefer a standard Front Wheel Drive 159 3.2 as they would prefer less weight and less drive train power losses(22% compared to 33% on the 159 3.2 Q4) than the dreaded torque steer of a powerful front wheel drive car, but I think the Q4 system is the essence of the car and it is by far the best to drive and the balance and grip the car has is amazing,. It is pleasing to see you guys in the US feeling the same way as I do as I have been definitely in the minority regarding my views on the 159 3.2 Q4 in Australia.
However the 164 Q was a great car and the 24 valve quad cam I gather was even better, but it also didn't come to Australia, but I would love to get a 164 Q4 but I think they would be hard to find in right hand drive as I don't think any were ever made.

kanga · #9 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 02:27 PM

I think the AWD system in the 159Q4 is based on the 164 Q4 system, it is a permanent 4wd with rear bias 55% rear 45% front that can go up to all rear or 70 % front if needed, it feels nearly as nimble as a rear wheel drive car but much more stable, great for snow and mud, it uses 4 individual diffs.I had a Suburu Liberty AWD before it but I think the Q4 system is more advanced. Hopefully Alfa continue the Q4 so you will have the opportunity of buying it in the US when Alfa eventually come back. In the mean time if you could get a 164Q4 it would be a real collectors item for the future because it would be the "ultimate" Alfa sedan and a great drivers car to boot with that magnificent Arese engine powering it that is sadly no longer available.

**AlfaAddict** · #10 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 07:46 PM

The 164Q4 is by far the best driver in my opinion. I was fortunate to own one while stationed in Germany and it was a joy to drive. I don't feel the extra weight was a handicap as the engine management is superior to normal 164Q's and quite responsive. And I can’t rave enough just how sweet that 6-speed is.

Keep in mind though over in Europe there is (in my opinion) a better and more sophisticated roadway system, which allowed me to take better advantage of the vehicles unique attributes. In stop and go traffic on a US road I would much prefer an auto 164LS

**Alfissimo Int.** · #11 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlfaAddict

The 164Q4 is by far the best driver in my opinion. I was fortunate to own one while statKeep in mind though over in Europe there is (in my opinion) a better and more sophisticated roadway system, which allowed me to take better advantage of the vehicles unique attributes. In stop and go traffic on a US road I would much prefer an auto 164LS

junglejustice · #12 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 09:43 AM

Guys, I dunno!

Yes - the Q4 was the ultimate dealer-model ever sold (so it is an obvious choice), but there are a few draw-backs to it (the weight being one) and the cost to obtaining one is of significance (especially here in the US...) Overall, these cars still lack horsepower too and there's so much that can be done with the suspension and brakes for the money!

I drove a Q4 with a buddy part of the way from Dresden to Köln some years back and it was a dream on the Autobahn, but around town you could really feel the pork! With a 3.45 or a 3.7 liter in it, perhaps I would like it a bit better, but even then; the AWD grip is evident - but the grip is quickly off-set by the weight-shift as you push it harder through the twisties! The added grip is not always a good trade-off for extra weight!

The power and AWD is also worth a bit less in the corners without an LSD!

Lenard, keep in mind that TJ put the GTA Stage 1 intake cams that I sold to him in that car and your car also has the less-restrictive pass-through hotwire-type MAS sensor (as apposed to the restrictive flapper-crapper AFM). You are probably enjoying a nice pop in power over your average 164 LS/Super (and yes - then there's the Q4 system and the feel of exclusivity that you enjoy for what the car is...)

Still - back to cost; here in the US I can think of better ways to spend a 20-25K budget for an Alfa 164 (set aside other cars as an option - let's just talk 164).

For 25K you can have a real nice 1994 or 1995 164 LS/Super as a donor-car, a 6-speed conversion with a choice of THREE gearboxes (3.5, 3.7, or 3.9:1 final-drive ratios), a hot 270 horsepower 3.0 24v (or perhaps even a 290 horsepower 3.2 litre), a much better suspension and most importantly - an LSD! I love the Q4 and with money not an issue, it would be great to have it all on the Q4, but the weight remains and issue and cost is an issue!

My favorite then, the 10.7:1 3.45 litre 24v 1995 164 LS, with the 3.7:1 ratio GTA 6-speed, LSD and suspension mods!

**Alfissimo Int.** · #13 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junglejustice

Guys, I dunno!

Yes - the Q4 was the ultimate dealer-model ever sold (so it is an obvious choice), but there are a few draw-backs to it (the weight being one) and the cost to obtaining one is of significance (especially here in the US...) Overall, these cars still lack horsepower too and there's so much that can be done with the suspension and brakes for the money!

I drove a Q4 with a buddy part of the way from Dresden to Köln some years back and it was a dream on the Autobahn, but around town you could really feel the pork! With a 3.45 or a 3.7 liter in it, perhaps I would like it a bit better, but even then; the AWD grip is evident - but the grip is quickly off-set by the weight-shift as you push it harder through the twisties! The added grip is not always a good trade-off for extra weight!

The power and AWD is also worth a bit less in the corners without an LSD!

Lenard, keep in mind that TJ put the GTA Stage 1 intake cams that I sold to him in that car and your car also has the less-restrictive pass-through hotwire-type MAS sensor (as apposed to the restrictive flapper-crapper AFM). You are probably enjoying a nice pop in power over your average 164 LS/Super (and yes - then there's the Q4 system and the feel of exclusivity that you enjoy for what the car is...)

Still - back to cost; here in the US I can think of better ways to spend a 20-25K budget for an Alfa 164 (set aside other cars as an option - let's just talk 164).

For 25K you can have a real nice 1994 or 1995 164 LS/Super as a donor-car, a 6-speed conversion with a choice of THREE gearboxes (3.5, 3.7, or 3.9:1 final-drive ratios), a hot 270 horsepower 3.0 24v (or perhaps even a 290 horsepower 3.2 litre), a much better suspension and most importantly - an LSD! I love the Q4 and with money not an issue, it would be great to have it all on the Q4, but the weight remains and issue and cost is an issue!

My favorite then, the 10.7:1 3.45 litre 24v 1995 164 LS, with the 3.7:1 ratio GTA 6-speed, LSD and suspension mods!

la_strega_nera · #14 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 03:16 PM

The ultimate would have to be a 164 re-engineered to be rwd wouldn't it?

alfa164swm · #15 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 03:18 PM

Well, I am the lucky owner of both a 164 Q4 (with GTA intake cams), a 164 QV 24v (modified with 166 3.0 6-speed gearbox and Q2 diff) and a 156 gta SW 3.2 as daily driver.

The Q4 is an amazing piece of technology. However if am am really honest, I must admit that the (much) lighter QV is more pleasant and fun to drive than the Q4.

The Q4 is definitively way to heavy (partly compensated by some extra punch by fitting GTA cams) and is especially bad with braking. I am currently working on fitting 166 3.0 4-pot brake calipers and corresponding larger dia -discs (310mm). The car really needs bigger brakes, I cannot understand how it was ever possible and/or allowed to sell a car with such poor brakes.

The QV feels far more powerful and is usally quicker, also in bends (due to the Q2 diff, which I recommend to anyone with a FWD alfa V6) compared to the Q4.

The Q4 is very good when weather conditions are very poor, such as heavy rain or snow.

Also the exclusivity and the advanced 4WD system, especially for it's time, do give the car and the driving experience a little extra, which is the reason why I will not consider selling it.

But when it comes to the true driving experience, the Q4 is unfortunately not my ultimate 164.

My Q4:

The QV 24v: