09-25-2009, 08:24 AM
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Member
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Broomfield, Colorado
Posts: 61
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Only Radiator and Condenser could be saved
Unfortunately as part of the legislation the only parts that are allowed to be salvaged are the radiator and the AC condensor. The whole rest of the car down to the last bolt was ordered scrapped. Not even a door panel could be saved! Those Alfa's went to complete waste...
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Sandman 1976 Alfa Spider, 1984 GTV-6, 1988 Milano Verde, 1991 164L, 1991 164S, 1997 Dodge Dakota, 2005 Dodge Magnum R/T.
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09-25-2009, 01:09 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 10,068
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What is the real story on CARS regs?
 Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman
Unfortunately as part of the legislation the only parts that are allowed to be salvaged are the radiator and the AC condensor. The whole rest of the car down to the last bolt was ordered scrapped. Not even a door panel could be saved! Those Alfa's went to complete waste...
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Here is interesting read hope it is true:
Click here: Killing Your Clunker Correctly: How a Dealer 'Disables' It - Green Car Reports Killing Your Clunker Correctly: How a Dealer 'Disables' It - Green Car Reports
Excerpt from link: From crushing to seizing
Originally, by the way, the provision was going to require that the trade in be crushed entirely. But after high-volume shrieking from the auto-salvage industry (read junkyards, or if you're being more polite, dismantlers), this was changed to just destroying the engine.
Even still, there's been whining here and there that this prevents individual engine components--pistons, crankshafts, etc.--from being reused.
Well, yes."
So what is the real story?
Here is paragraph form recycler's rule from gov web site http://www.cars.gov/files/official-i.../amendment.pdf : "This facility will not sell or transfer the trade-in vehicle’s engine block and drive train (unless with respect to the drive train, the transmission, drive shaft, or rear end are sold as separate parts) at any time prior to its crushing or shredding."
I think the no salvage rights of any part of car is just a rumor not fact prove me wrong.
More from above: •
This facility appears on the CARS program Disposal Facility List.
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This facility participates in the End of Life Vehicle Solutions (ELVS) program. (Excluding facilities located in Maine or a U.S. territory).
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This facility is capable of crushing or shredding the trade-in vehicle, either with its own equipment or by use of a mobile crusher.
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This facility meets all applicable Federal and State laws.
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This facility has a currently active State license to operate as a disposal facility in the State where it is located.
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This facility received the trade-in vehicle bearing the above listed Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) on the date listed above from the dealer or salvage auction listed above.
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I, or an employee of this facility under my direction or supervision, will report to the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) the status of the trade-in vehicle as a scrap vehicle not more than seven (7) days after the above-listed date of receipt.
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The trade-in vehicle has not been, and will not be, sold, leased, exchanged or otherwise disposed of for use as an automobile in the United States or in any other country.
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This facility will not transfer the trade-in vehicle to another disposal facility prior to its crushing or shredding.
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This facility will not sell or transfer the trade-in vehicle’s engine block and drive train (unless with respect to the drive train, the transmission, drive shaft, or rear end are sold as separate parts) at any time prior to its crushing or shredding.
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I, or an employee of this facility under my direction or supervision, will dispose of refrigerants, antifreeze, lead products, mercury switches, and such other toxic or hazardous vehicle components prior to the crushing or shredding of the trade-in vehicle, in accordance with all applicable Federal and State requirements.
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If this facility participates in ELVS, I, or an employee of this facility under my direction or supervision, will return all mercury switches in accordance with the procedures of the National Vehicle Mercury Switch Recovery Program (NVMSRP).
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I, or an employee of this facility under my direction or supervision, will crush or shred (or cause to be crushed or shredded on our premises), the trade-in vehicle within one-hundred eighty (180) days after the above-listed date of receipt.
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I, or an employee of this facility under my direction or supervision, will report to NMVTIS that this facility crushed or shredded the trade-in vehicle not more than seven (7) days after the date of crushing or shredding. (Note: The CARS program does not require that this facility, or any other entity which may subsequently receive the crushed trade-in
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vehicle, subsequently submit to NHTSA a CARS program Disposal Facility Certification Form, nor does it require that this facility, or any other entity which may subsequently receive the crushed trade-in vehicle, report to NMVTIS that the crushed trade-in vehicle has been shredded).
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
s.patchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2956365
Daily drivers: USA models 91 Bianco 164B 5-speed - ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento aka "Quik Silver" 164B w/AT 1QUIK AG, 91 Argento 164L w/AT aka "Quik Silver 2 - ALFA 4US and 93 Rosso 164L 5-speed - ALFISTO.
Rescue projects: Organ donor 91 Nero 164L w/AT, 91 "Old Blue" 164L w/AT
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 09-25-2009 at 01:47 PM.
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09-25-2009, 03:15 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 600
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You can buy anything but the engine block, rods, pistons, crank and heads at the junkyards in california. I think that only applies if they notice, cause i saw an LT1 with everything (including the heads) gone from the top of the engine.
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10-06-2009, 09:45 AM
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Alfanumeric Member, Senor
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: NW Or & SW Wa
Posts: 766
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Free money
And another moment of silence for the stupid owners who bought into this program. The following is going around the internet now, and sounds right on to me, based on my family background in the auto business, but if someone has a rebuttal, i'd love to hear it (except the usual ultralib insults of course):
Quote:
Originally Posted by bianchi1
lets' all take a moment of silence, for our lost brothers..
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 "THIS WAS A GOOD DEAL?
or was it??
If you traded in a clunker worth $3500, you get $4500 off for an apparent "savings" of $1000.
However, you have to pay taxes on the $4500 come April 15th (something that no auto dealer will tell you). If you are in the 30% tax bracket, you will pay $1350 on that $4500.
So, rather than save $1000, you actually pay an extra $350 to the feds. In addition, you traded in a car that was most likely paid for. Now you have 4 or 5 years of payments on a car that you did not need, that was costing you less to run than the payments that you will now be making.
But wait, it gets even better: you also got ripped off by the dealer.
For example, every dealer in LA was selling the Ford Focus with all the goodies including A/C, auto transmission, power windows, etc for $12,500 the month before the "cash for clunkers" program started.
When "cash for clunkers" came along, they stopped discounting them and instead sold them at the list price of $15,500. So, you paid $3000 more than you would have the month before. (Honda, Toyota, and Kia played the same list price game that Ford and Chevy did).
So lets do the final tally here:
You traded in a car worth: $3500
You got a discount of: $4500
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Net so far +$1000
But you have to pay: $1350 in taxes on the $4500
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Net so far: -$350
And you paid: $3000 more than the car was selling for the month before
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Net -$3350
We could also add in the additional taxes (sales tax, state tax, etc.) on the extra $3000 that you paid for the car, along with the 5 years of interest on the car loan, but lets just stop here.
So who actually made out on the deal? The feds collected taxes on the car along with taxes on the $4500 they "gave" you. The car dealers made an extra $3000 or more on every car they sold along with the kickbacks from the manufacturers and the loan companies. The manufacturers got to dump lots of cars they could not give away the month before. And the poor stupid consumer got saddled with even more debt that they cannot afford.
Obama and his band of merry men convinced Joe the consumer that he was getting $4500 in "free" money from the "government" when in fact Joe was giving away his $3500 car and paying an additional $3350 for the privilege."
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Todays toy count: 73 Alfa spider, 72 Alfa Spider, 78 Fiat Spider, Royal Enfield 500 Spyder
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10-06-2009, 09:54 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: sacramento,ca
Posts: 3,310
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i work for ford, here in n.caal..$12500 for a new focus?? even after rebate.. they must be losing lots of money on each car...ave 2009 focus se( all power , auto,) msrp' d at 18500 or( and that was for the early 2008 later ones where $18750) there abouts, acct.for slight diff. in each package.. and on focus there is only $650-1100 from invoice to msrp...and the rebate where not that high..and what so bad about selling a car for msrp???????????????? i race bicycles and the mark up on a new orbea orca is really high, as compared to what we get...lets see car salespeople= bad.. everone esle that makes a profit on there product=good???
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don't follow me,i'am lost 
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10-06-2009, 10:08 AM
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Alfanumeric Member, Senor
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: NW Or & SW Wa
Posts: 766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bianchi1
and on focus there is only $650-1100 from invoice to msrp...and the rebate where not that high..and what so bad about selling a car for msrp???????????????? i race bicycles and the mark up on a new orbea orca is really high, as compared to what we get...lets see car salespeople= bad.. everone esle that makes a profit on there product=good???
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One of my best friends, who claims to be poor, traded in a near perfect and paid off GMC Jimmy that looked new for his CRV and 28,000 in payments. True stupidity from a financial point, or in reality, illogical justification for indulging in his lust for newer and better, just like in bike racing I imagine.
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Todays toy count: 73 Alfa spider, 72 Alfa Spider, 78 Fiat Spider, Royal Enfield 500 Spyder
Last edited by RC Hiatt; 10-07-2009 at 06:07 PM.
Reason: I can sell you cards for your spokes that are half the weight
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10-06-2009, 10:14 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: sacramento,ca
Posts: 3,310
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?? couple thousand??? in a ford focus?? where did you get that information from?????maybe the manufacture amke that much per car.. but at the dealership level..no way..can you prove it.. show me...oh yes..we don't 'mark up' our car..apples to apples.. msrp to invoice not what some crazy dealership 'mark up' to invoice...gm =bankrupt...chysler=bankrupt..toyota== took money from japanese goverment..all hail the great toyota/honda..ford.. no money from goverment.. ford not bankrupt.. have you seen our new cars??
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don't follow me,i'am lost
Last edited by bianchi1; 10-06-2009 at 10:19 AM.
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10-06-2009, 10:17 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: sacramento,ca
Posts: 3,310
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so rc hiatt, what kind of work do you do.. can i get you products at below cost..and can my freinds..yes , sell all you product below cost.. great bussness plan..
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don't follow me,i'am lost
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10-06-2009, 10:34 AM
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ReAlfisted 3/06
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 6,653
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 the Ford Focus is an embarrassment. Come on, from the folks who made the GT350 and the Drag Pack Ford Torino 429.  I'd sooner walk than be caught driving that POS.
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Loud pipes save lives.
Ride hard or stay home - but, then again, the Alfa stays garaged when it rains.
1973 GTV - bought 3/06 (intend to keep forever)
1969 GTV, #AR1530021 - sold 10/72 (guess didn't intend to keep forever)
Current project: '69 Corvette bought in '73, DD '73 - '80, in storage 1989-2002, now apart (#1 on the Bucket list)
Last finished project: '75 Honda 750 bought new, DD '75 - '79 - in storage 26 years (1984 - 6/09) - an EZ resto
Favorite weapon: Browning A-Bolt .300 WM with 200 grain handloaded Noslers & a Leopold 2x7 or my Benjamin 312 with open sights.
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10-06-2009, 10:36 AM
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Alfanumeric Member, Senor
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: NW Or & SW Wa
Posts: 766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bianchi1
so rc hiatt, what kind of work do you do.. can i get you products at below cost..and can my freinds..yes , sell all you product below cost.. great bussness plan..
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As for cars, anyone can see it by looking at real advertised prices over time. I also had a father who was one of the top car salesmen in the nation for over 40 years and I don't need a pissing match to know what the real story of pricing and trade in's is.
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Todays toy count: 73 Alfa spider, 72 Alfa Spider, 78 Fiat Spider, Royal Enfield 500 Spyder
Last edited by RC Hiatt; 10-06-2009 at 03:54 PM.
Reason: If there is a free lunch, can you really swallow it?
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10-06-2009, 10:40 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: sacramento,ca
Posts: 3,310
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proof?? maybe in those long gone yester years.. big$$$ on each car.. but now......
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don't follow me,i'am lost
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10-07-2009, 08:06 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 134
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A few comments
1) To go back to the original post, it is interesting to see a number of gray importers on the list: JK, Wallace, etc., all of them selling Benzs. I guess these entries may have to do with how the cars were titled.
2) I suspect some of the entries are incorrect. Some cars could have been "upgraded" on the paperwork filed to a thirstier model to qualify for C for C. For example, the 1991 Alfa 164 S qualified, but not the 5-speed Base and L (I forget about the A/Ts). The EPA website was not very clear and just stated two different MPG ratings for the 5-speed, one of which barely qualified and the other one barely didn't. Because the model (S, L, Base) was not stated, one would need to be an Alfa expert to decode the information and understand that it must be the S that qualified and reject claims for Ls and Bases, so there could be some honest mistakes where claims were filed for 5-speed L's. But apart from Alfas, looking at the list which includes a recent MY Corolla and the mentioned Volvos, I think somehow many other non-qualifying cars slipped through. If the list represents honored claims, maybe there is a basis for an exposé or litigation.
3) Sad to see this list. I dislike the C for C program because I think it overlooks that the carbon foot print of making a new car (extracting the steel, making microprocessors, etc.) is so big that in many cases it would have been better for the environment to keep an older car on the road for a few more years than to scrap it in favor of a new car. Luckily, the end of C for C has seen new car sales come to a lull, so we can hope that the peak in scrapped classic cars will be similarly negated by a dip in scrapping.
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10-07-2009, 08:35 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: sacramento,ca
Posts: 3,310
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lots of steel is recycled now, ford is getting pretty good at making our cars from lot of recycled plastic, steel alum, soybeans, levis..etc.
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don't follow me,i'am lost
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10-08-2009, 12:44 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hamilton, NZ
Posts: 820
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I don't think the Alfa 164 did so badly compared to the 97 - yes, ninety-seven - Corvettes on that list. Or perhaps a more-fair comparison would be to the Subaru SVX, which lost over 100.
It's not that I especially love the Corvette, it's just I have only ever seen a couple of Corvettes on the roads in NZ and they are the same price as a Ferrari. I was amazed that such cars could be considered 'clunkers'. Ditto the 1997 'Rolls Royce' Continental R, and at the other end of the scale, a number of ordinary Fords, Toyotas, and Hyundais - but 2008 models! 
Looks like Alfisto Steve was in good company, too. There were over 25,000 Jeep Grand Cherokees (4WD) on that list, ranging from 1993 to 2006.
-Alex
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'03 156 TSpark Selespeed, '89, '91, and '92 164 3L V6s (one of which works), '88 Uno Turbo, '78 124 Spider.
Last edited by AlexGS; 10-08-2009 at 12:59 AM.
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10-08-2009, 08:12 AM
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ReAlfisted 3/06
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 6,653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexGS
It's not that I especially love the Corvette, it's just I have only ever seen a couple of Corvettes on the roads in NZ and they are the same price as a Ferrari. I was amazed that such cars could be considered 'clunkers'.
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__________________
Loud pipes save lives.
Ride hard or stay home - but, then again, the Alfa stays garaged when it rains.
1973 GTV - bought 3/06 (intend to keep forever)
1969 GTV, #AR1530021 - sold 10/72 (guess didn't intend to keep forever)
Current project: '69 Corvette bought in '73, DD '73 - '80, in storage 1989-2002, now apart (#1 on the Bucket list)
Last finished project: '75 Honda 750 bought new, DD '75 - '79 - in storage 26 years (1984 - 6/09) - an EZ resto
Favorite weapon: Browning A-Bolt .300 WM with 200 grain handloaded Noslers & a Leopold 2x7 or my Benjamin 312 with open sights.
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