Motor Mounts on the cheap: SAAB?

[gprocket]

Again, I apologize if I'm repeating other threads but after reading the archives I'm afraid I'm more than a little confused about motor mounts.

Backing up a bit, we've got the '92L (5 Speed) apart to replace a cracked oil pan. It was here that we realized that the motor mounts (I'm told all) are toast (project creep in full force). The SAAB mounts I gather can be substituted but there is some controversy about their quality. Frankly I'm less concerned about the perfect mount and more about money. I'm trying not to spend more on mounts than I did on the whole car so I'm looking for options.

My main question is this: Which Alfa mounts can be swapped for SAAB mounts? Which ones require modification?

Thanks in advance.

[Alfisto Steve]

Right front Saab mount can be subed with minor mod. I just used a $35 dollar early model one on latest rescue project and just drilled out hole in 164 front mount (ac bracket piece) so Saab stud would fit. Drill hole out when old mount out and went up through hole in sub frame with drill bit.

Next option is $44 dollar later model one. It takes a bolt from top down through Alfa 164 mounting bracket hole. You have to remove a bracket off top of Saab mount and then saw off (or just leave) tab around bolt hole in center of mount. I used one of those on my 164B and sawed off tab and drilled and tapped hole deeper into mount but if you leave tab on threaded hole deep enough as is.

I posted pictures of all three mounts but not sure they are still on here. I will see if I can find them. eEuroparts - Welcome to eEuroparts.com sells mounts as well as ebayer sellers.

Use 164 rear lower mount 60801765 12v or 60581462 24v prices pretty good still on these.

Use AT tranny mount 60556613 on both 5-sp and AT cars best price.

Use split poly bushing on rear head top mount point and OEM or soft poly large lolli pop end

[Del]

I used on of the later SAAB mounts in my 91S a few years ago, and it is still working well, with no deterioration. It took very little modification, described by Steve, to make it actually look just like the OEM Alfa mount. It fit right in using a bolt of the correct length (I had an assortment of lengths to pick from to make sure). Easily the way to go if you ask me, even if it might not last as long. It's pretty inexpensive.

Isn't it amazing how much different prices are for basically the same part, but as used on different makes. I'm glad the Digest and BB exist to provide this kind of information.

[AlexGS]

Original Alfa front-right mount is fluid-filled, most SAAB mounts are solid rubber.

I was curious and started a thread about a fluid-filled SAAB mount that also happened to have a bargain price: The $29.90 oil-filled Saab mount Turned out that Alfisto Steve had been there before me - of course!

Here was a follow-up:

$29.90 Saab front mount installation


My conclusion - Jason had fluid-filled OEM mounts available at a fair price - that would be my choice every time. I wouldn't want to sacrifice any of the hard-won refinement of the 164.

-Alex

[Alfissimo Int.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gprocket Again, I apologize if I'm repeating other threads but after reading the archives I'm afraid I'm more than a little confused about motor mounts. Backing up a bit, we've got the '92L (5 Speed) apart to replace a cracked oil pan. It was here that we realized that the motor mounts (I'm told all) are toast (project creep in full force). The SAAB mounts I gather can be substituted but there is some controversy about their quality. Frankly I'm less concerned about the perfect mount and more about money. I'm trying not to spend more on mounts than I did on the whole car so I'm looking for options. My main question is this: Which Alfa mounts can be swapped for SAAB mounts? Which ones require modification? Thanks in advance.

[Alfisto Steve]

Looks like my 35 and 44 dollar mounts on ebay are gone now but here is a $58 on eEuroparts - Part Detail

Here is one for 23 bucks you will have to drill out hole in front mount bracket to use. Saab 9000 Engine Mount - Corteco/Freudenberg, Febi, Mission Trading Company, OEQ, Scan-Tech Products - 1998, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1994, 1993, 1992, 1991, 1990 We just put one of these in a 91L rescue project.

Here are pictures of 164 and Saab 9000 front mounts I use depending on which one I find when I need it: Front 164 engine mount/Saab 9000 mounts

[Del]

Can't take issue with Jason's argument; however, in using the modified Saab unit, I've not noticed any difference in engine vibrations transmitted to the frame of the car due to not having the oil filled unit. This is of course provided you've kept the other mounts in good condition. As Jason noted, the other mounts, including the sway bar up top, MUST be in good condition to keep the oil filled OEM one sound. As long as you don't "herky-jerk" the throttle, they should last quite a while.

[ChazzyD]

I've been using a solid Saab mount in the front for several years now and still working good. I replaced the upper dog bone and the rear right mount as well at about the same time so that is probably saving the front mount from too much "pull: forces. If all the other mounts are bad and you throw in just a Saab cheap front mount, it probably wouldn't last long. I believe my Saab mount was a Corteco later, bolt down style, if I remember right. I'm still glad I saved the money, but if it fails anytime soon, I probably won't be too happy with doing the job again. I've gotten pretty used to just driving the car and not working on it.
Charles

[gprocket]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input. As I said, I was confused about the different options and even the difference between the driver's side mount for the AT verses the MT. I get it now.

Here is what I'm doing: The transmission (driver's side) mount is good (enough) so that stays. The rear mount disintegrated in our hands and that I am replacing with an Alfa mount. At the time I wasn't sure which of the SAAB mounts to use so yesterday I ordered another rear mount to be used in the front position. Today I will order the SAAB mount and when they are all in I will decide which I will use up front. If I go with the SAAB I'll have a spare rear mount that I can use with one of the other cars.

As far as OEM mounts, Jason I totally agree what what you are saying. In this case, though the car is a resurrected parts car and I would literally be spending more on the mounts then what I paid for it. I am also foregoing replacing the clutch for the same monetary reason. I have a spare pan as well as A arms, ball joints, tie rod ends and struts so I will renew those. If the front mount prematurely fails but the car proves to be otherwise solid then I won't complain about spending the money. But now's not the time for me.

Ironically, as some of you might know my main business is molded rubber products. Over the years we have produced many rubber motor mounts. I think most people would be surprised at the amount of engineering and production technique that goes into making a mount. Usually a typical rubber part drawing will specify a particular type of rubber with certain properties dominated by hardness (durometer in Shore "A" scale). We, the producer will qualify our compound using lab samples and once accepted you lock in the material and away you go. With a motor mount on the other hand, a typical drawing list the performance requirements and we are expected to meet those by any means possible. These requirements are very specific and difficult to achieve and one must run millions of cycles on the actual parts to verify you are within spec. There is a tremendous amount of attention placed on these units and as a result it is a relatively rare thing to have an OEM mount fail. The other thing that happens is that the actual formulation of the rubber becomes a trade secret. You can't just call up Goodyear and say "Give me 500 lbs of XYZ rubber for Alfa motor mounts".

The total raw material costs in a production mount is about $10 whether it is a $200 mount or a $36 mount. And whether you are in Akron, Martapura , or Zhengzhou. The bulk of the cost is in the labor, and overhead which includes testing.

In the aftermarket world though, the testing is minimal or non-existent and labor rates are a fraction of mature markets. Often times a molder is handed a part and told to make one like it - no drawings, no specifications. About the only thing you can test for at that point is the hardness and so a motor mount is produced that looks and feels the same as the OEM but in reality is far from it. Parts made in China are a great example of that. The truth is that Chinese manufacturing is quite competent - to believe otherwise is foolish at best, dangerous at worst. The "culprit" if one is looking for a fall guy would be the importer that markets their parts as direct replacement items. On the other hand, having cheap products like these have no doubt saved more than a few from becoming a parts car. Case in point is this one...

Anyway, thanks again...

[Alfissimo Int.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gprocket Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input. As I said, I was confused about the different options and even the difference between the driver's side mount for the AT verses the MT. I get it now. Here is what I'm doing: The transmission (driver's side) mount is good (enough) so that stays. The rear mount disintegrated in our hands and that I am replacing with an Alfa mount. At the time I wasn't sure which of the SAAB mounts to use so yesterday I ordered another rear mount to be used in the front position. Today I will order the SAAB mount and when they are all in I will decide which I will use up front. If I go with the SAAB I'll have a spare rear mount that I can use with one of the other cars. As far as OEM mounts, Jason I totally agree what what you are saying. In this case, though the car is a resurrected parts car and I would literally be spending more on the mounts then what I paid for it. I am also foregoing replacing the clutch for the same monetary reason. I have a spare pan as well as A arms, ball joints, tie rod ends and struts so I will renew those. If the front mount prematurely fails but the car proves to be otherwise solid then I won't complain about spending the money. But now's not the time for me. Ironically, as some of you might know my main business is molded rubber products. Over the years we have produced many rubber motor mounts. I think most people would be surprised at the amount of engineering and production technique that goes into making a mount. Usually a typical rubber part drawing will specify a particular type of rubber with certain properties dominated by hardness (durometer in Shore "A" scale). We, the producer will qualify our compound using lab samples and once accepted you lock in the material and away you go. With a motor mount on the other hand, a typical drawing list the performance requirements and we are expected to meet those by any means possible. These requirements are very specific and difficult to achieve and one must run millions of cycles on the actual parts to verify you are within spec. There is a tremendous amount of attention placed on these units and as a result it is a relatively rare thing to have an OEM mount fail. The other thing that happens is that the actual formulation of the rubber becomes a trade secret. You can't just call up Goodyear and say "Give me 500 lbs of XYZ rubber for Alfa motor mounts". The total raw material costs in a production mount is about $10 whether it is a $200 mount or a $36 mount. And whether you are in Akron, Martapura , or Zhengzhou. The bulk of the cost is in the labor, and overhead which includes testing. In the aftermarket world though, the testing is minimal or non-existent and labor rates are a fraction of mature markets. Often times a molder is handed a part and told to make one like it - no drawings, no specifications. About the only thing you can test for at that point is the hardness and so a motor mount is produced that looks and feels the same as the OEM but in reality is far from it. Parts made in China are a great example of that. The truth is that Chinese manufacturing is quite competent - to believe otherwise is foolish at best, dangerous at worst. The "culprits" if one is looking for a fall guy would be the importer that markets their parts as direct replacement items. Anyway, thanks again...

[gprocket]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. Understandable. I cannot compete with cheap mounts.

[Alfissimo Int.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gprocket Not on price. But quality, performance and ultimately value I imagine you stack up quite nicely...

[Alfisto Steve]

I would not even think about putting a rear mount in right front position inside the sub frame as I think it will possibley bottom out in the sub frame when it flexes and it has a three bolt mounting pattern spaced in thirds instead of two 180 out from each other.

Now I think a rear Saab mount may work but then if gong that route why not use a front Saab one. Did you check on that $23 one?

[gprocket]

Opps, too late. I did install the rear mount up front. It was a situation where the car needed to get back on the road and I had to go with what was available. I had to trim off the upper flange but other than that it dropped in. There is sufficient gap statically and I don't notice any banging under normal driving conditions so so far so good. In reality the car has probably run on collapsed mounts for years so anything would be an improvement.

But I suspect that it may not last. If the rear mount is not designed to take the loads I imagine two things will happen: The mount itself will start to go pretty quickly and the dogbone upper mount will start to tear up since the additional motor torque will load up that mount. We will see...

My only other thought is that it seems there has been a lot of mixed reviews with the SAAB mounts and in contrast no issues that I've read about with the Alfa rear mounts. There are likely many, many reasons for that but if it is simply a matter of the Alfa mount being a higher quality unit then maybe there is hope.

As far as the mounting goes, the truth is I handed it to my maintenance guy to install and didn't notice the difference. He never said anything but he tends to be a "make it fit" type of mechanic so I'll have to take a look when I get a chance. That said, since this mount is in compression I'm not sure the lower mounting has much affect on the performance... OTAH, does that weaken the subframe assembly not having it tied in at that corner? You know, I'm usually the first to complain when someone short cuts a repair like this...

[Alfisto Steve]

Changing the subject entirely but when I was out in Blacksburg doing Alfa repair for my buds afdter a hard day in the garage I ended up watching Grosse Point Blank movie about John Cursack planning a pro killer who went back to GP, MI for his 10th class reunion what a hoot that movie was.

Now back to our regular programming - hope your motor mount switcheroo works out.